Nut Flush = 2nd Nuts

[linkwood 0]

This situation came up in a home game I was playing at recently and I thought it was very interesting. I wasn't in the hand, so I don't necessarily agree with all the plays made in the hand, but the river brings a very interesting situation. The hero in this hand is a somewhat LAG player, but overall solid. Not sure if he's a winning player overall, but he definitely could be. The villain is a solid player who is mostly TAG but mixes it up from time to time. Both players are capable of bluffs, however, on this board it is rare to find either one of them bluffing for a large amount of money. I guess its possible though. .25/.50Hero - ~60Villain - ~757 handedone fold, Hero limps with A 5 , one fold, button limps, sb folds, villain checks in bbPot: 1.75Flop - K Q 4 Villain checks, Hero checks, Button checksPot: 1.75Turn - J Villain checks, Hero bets .75, Button calls, Villain callsPot: 4River - 9 Villain bets 3.25, Hero raises to 9.50, Button folds, Villain raises to 25, Hero??? Do you just flat call here? If you raise what hands will call you that you beat?

[Zach6668 513]

I'd have to say, raising the river sucks.

[mtdesmoines 3]

one fold, Hero limps with A 5 , one fold, button limps, sb folds, villain checks in bbPot: 1.75Flop - K Q 4 Villain checks, Hero checks, Button checksPot: 1.75Turn - J Villain checks, Hero bets .75, Button calls, Villain callsPot: 4River - 9 Villain bets 3.25, Hero raises to 9.50, Button folds, Villain raises to 25, Hero??? Do you just flat call here? If you raise what hands will call you that you beat?

I can make a case for folding. Here are the cards/spades we can account for: A K Q J 9 OK, so the next highest spade he can have that's not the T is an 8 . I don't think an 8 gets here and then makes this raise with this board and the hero putting chips in the pot. Absent some friend-based, smart-assed bluffing, I don't think there's any mystery as to what the villain holds in his hot little hands.

[Scott3705 0]

I'd have to say, raising the river sucks.

Really????Fold. Like Mt says, he's not going crazy with 8 high flush here. Obviously bet the flop too.

[Naismith 0]

Obviously bet the flop too.

[Zach6668 513]

Yes, I meant to mention the flop, it's a must bet.Anyways, I am serious about the river raise.Although I do suppose the 8s calls a raise?I mean, we bet the turn when we turned the flush, and he calls, and donks the 4th flush card on the river? For 80% of the pot...I dunno, I think it's strong, and I think he's hoping we don't check behind with a lower flush.Does 8sX call the turn often? I doubt it...If we do raise, it's an immediate fold on a reraise. Betting the flop really changes the dynamic of this hand though.

[linkwood 0]

Yes, I meant to mention the flop, it's a must bet.Anyways, I am serious about the river raise.Although I do suppose the 8s calls a raise?I mean, we bet the turn when we turned the flush, and he calls, and donks the 4th flush card on the river? For 80% of the pot...I dunno, I think it's strong, and I think he's hoping we don't check behind with a lower flush.Does 8sX call the turn often? I doubt it...If we do raise, it's an immediate fold on a reraise. Betting the flop really changes the dynamic of this hand though.

I agree with all of this. Anyways, the hero in the hand shoved (horrible IMO) and the villain instacalled with 10 6 . Obviously a cooler, but I thought it was an interesting spot for the hero. He definitely should have bet the flop, which would have folded the villain. On the river I'm torn between raising and flat calling. I really don't think that the villain, unless he read the hero for a bluff would ever call the river raise by hero w/o the 10s, in which case he isn't calling, he's raising. So it seems like a zero play to raise the river. But I just can't wrap my head around just calling with such a powerful hand fearing one card. I think theoretically, against this villain, it may be correct to just call the river donk bet, but I'm still not certain on it.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I agree with all of this. Anyways, the hero in the hand shoved (horrible IMO) and the villain instacalled with 10 6 . Obviously a cooler, but I thought it was an interesting spot for the hero. He definitely should have bet the flop, which would have folded the villain. On the river I'm torn between raising and flat calling. I really don't think that the villain, unless he read the hero for a bluff would ever call the river raise by hero w/o the 10s, in which case he isn't calling, he's raising. So it seems like a zero play to raise the river. But I just can't wrap my head around just calling with such a powerful hand fearing one card. I think theoretically, against this villain, it may be correct to just call the river donk bet, but I'm still not certain on it.

The fact that we checked to get to the four-card SF and suddenly the villain is waking up on the river TELLS us what he has. There's no card left in the deck to explain this behavior and when we get raised on the river, it's an insta insta insta fold IMHO. You got twelve bucks in this pot. There's no reason to get stacked here. There's no reason to call the big raise. Laugh and muck it. Helmuth your cards to the muck.

[psujohn 0]

It's something I struggle with myself and something that's exacerbated by playing with people who make ridiculous moves.Essentially though on the river the nut flush beats only a bluff. There's no reasonable second best hand that could think they're ahead. There's < $0 EV in raising here. If villain is bluffing he won't call. If villain isn't bluffing he has hero beat. There's really no in between unless villain is severely retarded or accidentally raised while having a seizure.

[NoBBiR 0]

I agree with all of this. Anyways, the hero in the hand shoved (horrible IMO) and the villain instacalled with 10 6 . Obviously a cooler, but I thought it was an interesting spot for the hero. He definitely should have bet the flop, which would have folded the villain. On the river I'm torn between raising and flat calling. I really don't think that the villain, unless he read the hero for a bluff would ever call the river raise by hero w/o the 10s, in which case he isn't calling, he's raising. So it seems like a zero play to raise the river. But I just can't wrap my head around just calling with such a powerful hand fearing one card. I think theoretically, against this villain, it may be correct to just call the river donk bet, but I'm still not certain on it.

By the time the river comes and he raises, its no longer a cooler. Once he makes his raise, this is basically like stacking off on a Qs6s5s9s2c board with the King of spades. You can make a case for calling, but I don't think I'd even call, the villain isn't ever blowing up on this river with anything but the Ten if we hold the Ace.