nomad_monad 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)SB ($135.10)BB ($97.95)UTG ($98.65)Hero ($91.50)CO ($220.95)Button ($317.30)Preflop: Hero is MP with , . UTG raises to $3.5, Hero calls $3.50, 4 folds.Flop: ($8.50) , , (2 players)UTG checks, Hero checks.Turn: ($8.50) (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $8.5, UTG calls $8.50.River: ($25.50) (2 players)UTG bets $25.5, Hero ???Final Pot: $25.503 hands of note that I witnessed from Villain:Hand #1 (overplayed TPTK): raise pf w/AK, got called, flop comes Kxx with two hearts, he bets, gets raised, he reraises & commits, gets stacked by a set. (hence the flop call behind him with 35s in my hand)Hand #2 (river bluff): limped blind battle, he's BB. flop checks. SB bets turn, BB calls. SB checks river, BB bets pot, SB calls with top pair he picked up on the turn. don't remember the board that well but i don't think there was a completed draw he could've repped on the river.Hand #3 (weak when strong): called a flop bet in position, flush draw hits turn, his opponent leads again, he minraises. makes it to showdown and he shows the turned flush.As for his c-betting pattern: he had raised maybe about 25% of his hands and the only times he didn't cbet were when 1) it was multiway or 2) the flop came down all of one suit. A couple of his raised hands made it to showdown without betting and both times he had raised in CO or OTB with connectors (once sooted, once not).What do we think here on the river? Link to post Share on other sites
Metternich 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 1: Fold preflop, even with a player who overvalues top pair you can do better than 3-52: If you want to play hands like this you need to bet the flop, it's hard for that flop to get much better for a hand like yours in position right now.3: I probably puke and call, but I'm a station. Link to post Share on other sites
rdtedm 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 If villain has you beat he played it retardedly. He raises preflop, checks twice and wakes up on a paired board? A set has to bet at least the turn, AK/set raises turn when you bet pot. I can see maybe QsXs, maybe, but what else plays like this? Link to post Share on other sites
BellaireDrew 2 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 this really is a confusing hand. The check call on the turn is whats confusing me. but the way he played this hand if he has us beat I thinkk we pay it off. i cant really find a fold here. I can see AK, KK, 44, and 22 checking the flop, but not c/c the turn. Bah this hand is making my head hurt. Link to post Share on other sites
litlebullet 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 I think this is a complete bluff. He doesn't have anything, who the heck knows, what I'm thinking is that he was floating with some random ass hand, maybe a small or mid pair, had a spade and was trying to hit another one but he whiffed but then went oooooooooo that's a cool card to bluff at then insta-clicked the bet-pot button. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 1: Fold preflop, even with a player who overvalues top pair you can do better than 3-52: If you want to play hands like this you need to bet the flop, it's hard for that flop to get much better for a hand like yours in position right now.3: I probably puke and call, but I'm a station.Betting into the PFR on what is really not that great of a board for us is suicide. Yes we flopped an OESD, but it's a flush board and villain could be going for a CR or have top set and be seriously trapping. I really don't mind the check behind. What are we going to get him to fold that we are beating by betting the flop? AQ? AJ? That's about it.I actually instantly though raise the river all-in, not exactly sure why, mostly because the villains line doesn't make any sense. I guess the more reasonable play is to just call, but I think this is trip Kings (say KQ, or KJ) ten times as often as a full house or a flush. I don't understand the check/call on the turn and then the lead of the pot on the river as Bdrew said, it makes utterly no sense.I'm def. paying him off if he has us beat here. Link to post Share on other sites
litlebullet 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 I too agree to not lead out on the flop w/ this hand and be glad to take the free card Link to post Share on other sites
Ricer98 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Betting into the PFR on what is really not that great of a board for us is suicide. Yes we flopped an OESD, but it's a flush board and villain could be going for a CR or have top set and be seriously trapping. I really don't mind the check behind. What are we going to get him to fold that we are beating by betting the flop? AQ? AJ? That's about it.We might also fold A10, QJ, J10, pairs 55-QQ, ect, ect, ect. Villians range is pretty wide at 6 max. Point is it doesn't matter what we might get a fold out of. He showed weakness and we have outs if we get called, I bet this flop all day long. Link to post Share on other sites
Ricer98 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 I too agree to not lead out on the flop w/ this hand and be glad to take the free cardVillian gave us a green light to take this pot away, lets go for it. If this hand gets shown down its going to open up our range when the villian tries to put us on a hand in the future. Betting here is definetly +EV, we hit our draw or induce a fold enough. Also the times we do hit the pot is allready bigger so we can value bet into a bigger pot. Link to post Share on other sites
nomad_monad 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Author Share Posted September 28, 2007 sort of surprised the people advocating a flop bet are totally ignoring reads.villain has pretty much auto-cbet every flop HU except super-scary ones.he raises here PF and then checks? why? he definitely hasn't shown a proclivity for passiveness, at least when HU. this is a perfect flop for him to bet regardless of what he has. do we really want to get check-raised out of this hand when we've got a decent draw with really good implied odds, *especially* if villain is doing something donktastic by checking a strong hand? i'd be more inclined to bet here if i had seen him at least once give up on a pot as the PFR when HU. it's not as simple as "he showed weakness so bet," especially against a villain that's never checked HU on a harmless flopNoBBIR, I pretty much agree with your assessment of the hand up until the river, but what calls our raise here? is trip K really paying us off when it's quite possible we could've hit the flush draw on the turn? not to mention, it would be really weird for him to check a K on the flop. you also have to keep in mind that it's not that unusual for people to get cute w/AA here on the flop, then realizing they ****ed up on the turn and getting concerned about having gotten outdrawn, and then leading river as soon as they know they basically have improved to the nuts. Link to post Share on other sites
nomad_monad 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Author Share Posted September 28, 2007 1: Fold preflop, even with a player who overvalues top pair you can do better than 3-5It's not just about implied odds. If we see the combination of a villain seriously overplaying hands and slowing down on scary boards, we can play an awfully wide range of hands for floating potential (where it doesn't matter what we hold) in addition to implied odds. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 I'm not completely convinced with not betting the flop. If this is a regular that you're sitting down with that you know to check in this spot with strong made hands, then I'd be alright with it. Given your stacks, I assume you both weren't there for that long, so I don't know how completely reliable this sort of read is since you could be missing another aspect of why he doesn't c-bet. (He's UTG this hand, his image of your calling range, etc.) Also, there would be strings of hands where I c-bet everything and then all of a sudden check on an ace high board for no reason that could be explained by my last 10 c-bets/10 lack of c-bets.So yeah, I bet this most times.Considering you were observant of his preflop patterns, is full pot out of character for him here? That's a very healthy bet and a lot of times looks like a desperation play to get paid off since he was out of position. Link to post Share on other sites
nomad_monad 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Author Share Posted September 28, 2007 i'd been there for 1+ hour. we had near full stacks because he had gotten stacked and reloaded, and i had just coincidentally gone up/down right around the buyin amount. full pot wasn't too out of character for him. i had seen him pot the river with the nuts/near nuts more than value betting less, but that was also after he minraised at some point in the hand and gotten called.also, re: flop decision. assume we check behind but the turn doesn't complete our draw but still brings a 3 flush. it gets checked to us again - do we bet the turn? Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 sort of surprised the people advocating a flop bet are totally ignoring reads.villain has pretty much auto-cbet every flop HU except super-scary ones.he raises here PF and then checks? why? he definitely hasn't shown a proclivity for passiveness, at least when HU. this is a perfect flop for him to bet regardless of what he has. do we really want to get check-raised out of this hand when we've got a decent draw with really good implied odds, *especially* if villain is doing something donktastic by checking a strong hand? i'd be more inclined to bet here if i had seen him at least once give up on a pot as the PFR when HU. it's not as simple as "he showed weakness so bet," especially against a villain that's never checked HU on a harmless flopNoBBIR, I pretty much agree with your assessment of the hand up until the river, but what calls our raise here? is trip K really paying us off when it's quite possible we could've hit the flush draw on the turn? not to mention, it would be really weird for him to check a K on the flop. you also have to keep in mind that it's not that unusual for people to get cute w/AA here on the flop, then realizing they ****ed up on the turn and getting concerned about having gotten outdrawn, and then leading river as soon as they know they basically have improved to the nuts.The bolded part is why I would check. He has shown a propensity for cbetting every flop except scary ones, and he checks a really harmless flop. I usually take that as a sign of a set - if I think he's at all competent.I said, I instantly thought shove, but changed my mind. The turn and river just seem really weak to me for the villain. And yes, sometimes trip kings will call this river for a shove, depending on how donkalishious the villain is. But raising is stupid, the board is just too retarded. Link to post Share on other sites
Ricer98 0 Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 sort of surprised the people advocating a flop bet are totally ignoring reads.villain has pretty much auto-cbet every flop HU except super-scary ones.he raises here PF and then checks? why? he definitely hasn't shown a proclivity for passiveness, at least when HU. this is a perfect flop for him to bet regardless of what he has. do we really want to get check-raised out of this hand when we've got a decent draw with really good implied odds, *especially* if villain is doing something donktastic by checking a strong hand? i'd be more inclined to bet here if i had seen him at least once give up on a pot as the PFR when HU. it's not as simple as "he showed weakness so bet," especially against a villain that's never checked HU on a harmless flopNoBBIR, I pretty much agree with your assessment of the hand up until the river, but what calls our raise here? is trip K really paying us off when it's quite possible we could've hit the flush draw on the turn? not to mention, it would be really weird for him to check a K on the flop. you also have to keep in mind that it's not that unusual for people to get cute w/AA here on the flop, then realizing they ****ed up on the turn and getting concerned about having gotten outdrawn, and then leading river as soon as they know they basically have improved to the nuts.Okay, so I guess I didn't fully read the OP and see the last bit about his continuation bets. Either way, I'd probably still bet becuase I'm betting KQ, set of 2's or 4's, or any pair between 4's and 10's, since he checked, anyway. If I have position and am checked to, I just can't help myself with any piece of the flop. Link to post Share on other sites
Snamuh 0 Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 also, re: flop decision. assume we check behind but the turn doesn't complete our draw but still brings a 3 flush. it gets checked to us again - do we bet the turn?If the card is an Ace, I probably don't. If it's a low spade, I'm firing 6 or so to try to take it down with possible outs. Link to post Share on other sites
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