$2 Mtt - Shove Atc Time?

[Yahkin 0]

318 left, 297 get paid. Fold's to me in the CO and I have the worst hand in poker. Button is sitting out, and the blinds are trying very hard to cash. Standard shove here, right?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)UTG+1 (t7554)MP1 (t4448)MP2 (t6915)MP3 (t4875)Hero (t1520)Button (t265)SB (t3125)BB (t3225)UTG (t975)Preflop: Hero is CO with 7, 2. 5 folds, Hero raises to t1495SB woke up with a pp and I was done, but a conversation ensued in chat. I generally ignore those teaching moments from the rail, but I could tell the BB was nearly tilting after seeing what I had pushed with...so I tried to explain it to him. I received the obligitory "you're an donk/idiot" response.So...am I an idiot for this push?

[Metternich 0]

eh, kinda. It is the worst hand in poker, but it's also a steal with 2 cards guaranteed to be live.I don't hate it or love it.

[KoRnholio 2]

I'd push it, since we have pretty good fold equity against the SB and BB (would cost 50% of their stack to call). The only time I wouldn't push this is if the SB or BB is loose, but the rest of the table is tight.

[Cappy37 0]

This may sound counter-intuitive, but I actually don't shove here, because it's so darn obvious.With the button sitting out, it makes your "steal" all the more obvious. It will raise a red flag to both blinds, who, thanks to the blinds and antes, are getting a pretty good price to call you. Even if the SB opts to lay it down, the BB is getting a huge price to call you with ATC.Think of it in reverse: It costs the big blind almost 10% of his/her chips to *not* call you. The calling range for the blinds widens considerably, and you have a much greater probabilty of having to show down your hand. Your hand has almost zero showdown value. This is really not a good spot. It's a "Shove and be done with it" spot, not a "Shove with a positive expectation". Admit it, if you woke up with two queens here you would be *overjoyed*? Now ask yourself why that is: It is because you are *so* likely to be called. Your hand is actually 7-2. Fold. Your M is barely 2, FIV doesn't matter if you are this likely to be called and have no showdown value.I'd like to hear some more thoughts on this hand, too. I'm making such a solid case for not shoving here, I feel I'm missing something.

[potatoman 0]

I would fold this hand, every time, even with your tiny stack of chips. I wouldn't call it a horrible play, just not one I would make. In a live tournament, where I had a) a very good read of my opponents and B ) a tight image, I MAY make this play. Maybe. Otherwise, I will take my chances that I can get it in better than with 72.You have a lot more fold equity against okay players. Morons might call you with a wide range of hands and solid players will realize you could be making this play with a very wide range of hands... so they'll be looking to call. So really only average, "want to make the money!" players are going to fold hands like QJ, K10, etc to this move. Most will call, and if you have some monster AA-10s...they'll take the hit, cuze they know you could have had almost any two cards.It's funny how these situations, which we may face like four times in a life time bug us so much....But I guess the bigger question is, if 72 is too weak of a hand to make this move with, what is the min strength hand needed to push in this situation? Q7? 78s?

[jmbreslin 0]

I think Cappy and potato make good points. Those of us who frequent the micro stakes tourneys know that stealing blinds is a lot more challenging at these levels because players will make very loose calls even when they're not priced into the hand. In this kind of a situation I think you need a hand that has some showdown value or at least some potential to connect with a flop. Good pushing candidates would be hands like Ax, Kx, Qx, any mid-range connectors or 1-gappers, like T9, 87s, T8, etc.

[ROACHBABY 0]

I don't shove here, but its not a terrible play. I think that the whole wanting to make the money thing doesn't fly so much for players in a $2 tournament, ya know? I mean is someone gonna be devastated if they don't make the money and get their 3 bucks? You gotta keep that in mind- no one is just hanging on for the money that much in a 2 dollar tourney.This has been another excerpt from the bible according to Roach. Amen.

[Yahkin 0]

These two were quite tight, BB would occaisonally limp, but immediately let go if he missed the flop. My image is that I'm pushing once per orbit. I've been called once and was holding AK. AT split with me when the board flushed.I had pushed in this exact spot two orbits ago with my stack at 1600 and theirs at 3700 each. (I was holding 84o that time.) They both instafolded that time.So if you are SB/BB, what is your calling range in this situation? I know it's a pretty obvious spot for a steal to be happening, but I would still have to call off half my stack to be the hero.

[Yahkin 0]

I don't shove here, but its not a terrible play. I think that the whole wanting to make the money thing doesn't fly so much for players in a $2 tournament, ya know? I mean is someone gonna be devastated if they don't make the money and get their 3 bucks? You gotta keep that in mind- no one is just hanging on for the money that much in a 2 dollar tourney.This has been another excerpt from the bible according to Roach. Amen.

lol, you haven't played in one of these in a while then. Making the money in one of these is like winning to the majority of the players. In fact, in our post mortem discussion, the BB actually referred to the fact that he had made the money as him winning and me losing. 3 hands after the bubble burst, he limped with QJo and then called a PF push by a big stack that was holding AA. He was absolutely ecstatic that he had won $3.80. He really had no idea what I meant when I said I'd rather take 1st and $500 once than 20 - $3 finishes.

[pokerfan1080 0]

The "Push-Bot Charts" say a push here is correct with an M of 3.9

[copernicus 0]

Idiot? definitely not. A good number of players would take the first in vigorish, others would prefer to wait for a hand with some better potential to make a hand, since youre in the CO and have a few hands till the blinds roll around. Youve got about a 50/50 chance of a pp or decent Ace behind you. I would push unless I new that the blinds were loose callers.

[Yahkin 0]

The "Push-Bot Charts" say a push here is correct with an M of 3.9

Where can I get a full listing of these?Thanks.

[Sheiky 0]

What's an M?

[pokerfan1080 0]

What's an M?

M = your chip stack divided by the total of blinds and antesie. you have 5000 chips, blinds are 100-200, ante 25. 9 people at table = 25 x 9 + 300 = 525, 5000/525 = 9.5<------ MEdit: I should add that this is detailed very extensively in HOH. If you don't have those books, get them.

[Cappy37 0]

These two were quite tight, BB would occaisonally limp, but immediately let go if he missed the flop. My image is that I'm pushing once per orbit. I've been called once and was holding AK. AT split with me when the board flushed.I had pushed in this exact spot two orbits ago with my stack at 1600 and theirs at 3700 each. (I was holding 84o that time.) They both instafolded that time.So if you are SB/BB, what is your folding range in this situation? I know it's a pretty obvious spot for a steal to be happening, but I would still have to call off half my stack to be the hero.

FYP. :PDonks in these tourneys do weird, wild, wacky things when there are sitters involved. They are folding only the most morbid of paint holdings, most likely. This is just a gross spot to be in, truthfully, because your M is so low this may be the best chance you will have to steal, but you simply can't afford to be called.As for "cashing", a lot of folks (wrongly) demand to be paid for their 2 hours or so of struggle, and (also, wrongly) assume they can start their quest of chip accumulation after they have cashed. Your later post talking about one first place > 20 cashes is spot on, especially when you consider how much "dead money" is playing for 100th place. But you lose points for hanging around long enough on the rail after busting to have that discussion.