should i have been able to lay this down?

[Shellesund 0]

Ok. I see a lot of good arguments here, both for and against the call. And I have to say that both parties make exellent arguments. But of course, I can only speak for myself, and I would at least have hesitated making the final call. That being said, I guess you were sort of committed after making that (again, in my opinion) slightly too big turn bet, so I don`t blaim you. (Never did....) Nevertheless, I don`t agree with those who say that there is no way to lay this down. And you don`t have to be an exeptional reader to do so. I have NEVER EVER not slowplayed a flopped nut flush, and I am also very careful when someone might have. I`m not saying I could have put this guy on the nuts, but if I didn`t know him at all, just more reason to be careful.And Smash; I thought it was funny the first time. Now, I just don`t get it...Aseem and friji; Exellent posts. It`s posts like that which makes this forum worth visiting.

[Mandelbrot 0]

Albari played this hand beautifully.

[spacoli 0]

Isn't the K-high flush the 3rd nut flush in this hand? J 10 would be the nuts, no?Still a tough one to get away from considering your $50 bet...I would've probably called considering the odds that someone else has two of your suit aren't very good.

[fatmanonguitar 0]

Great arguments for either side.Mandelbrot took the words out of my mouth - give credit to albari for a well-executed slow-play.I would have also liked to see unbiased responses without the outcome known. Lay-downs are always more obvious in hindsight. The one reason I liked the turn bet is that it needs to be big enough to make a nut-flush draw fold. Maybe $30 would have done it.The most insightful point was made by Smash. If you can easily get away from your flopped K-high flush, then why play KQs in the first place?

[Shellesund 0]

Great arguments for either side.Mandelbrot took the words out of my mouth - give credit to albari for a well-executed slow-play.I would have also liked to see unbiased responses without the outcome known.  Lay-downs are always more obvious in hindsight.  The one reason I liked the turn bet is that it needs to be big enough to make a nut-flush draw fold.  Maybe $30 would have done it.The most insightful point was made by Smash.  If you can easily get away from your flopped K-high flush, then why play KQs in the first place?

Because you don`t play them for a flush. You play them for their high card value. The added value is that if you don`t hit your cards, your escape route can be the flush, if it hits. Sometimes though, you lose with them...

[jlgosse 0]

You're wrong, I was just making a joke.If you're not going to call here, don't play KQs at all.

I agree with smash on this one. If you lay down a hand like this because you fear your opponent has a longshot hand, then you will lose money in the long run.The most I expect my opponent to have in a situation like this is probably the draw to the ace-high flush, or a set, or even a low flush.( At least 4/5 times, you are dominating )

[rog 0]

It was played fine. You cant lay this down. You know there's a good chance you're beat when you get check-raised, but most of your stack is in already. The price is right, and there's still a decent chance you're ahead, so it may be a crying call, but you cant fold at this point.

[Shellesund 0]

A longshot hand. Hmm. Have you ever seen someone lay down a suited ace preflop without being severly raised at this level?And of course KQ is a valuable hand, not only because of it`s high card value, but obviously it`s combined flush and straight-value. Sorry `bout that. But it`s not the nuts on a flush-board. (Exept with the A, J and T of the same suit)

[Shellesund 0]

It was played fine.  You cant lay this down.  You know there's a good chance you're beat when you get check-raised, but most of your stack is in already.  The price is right, and there's still a decent chance you're ahead, so it may be a crying call, but you cant fold at this point.

I kind of like this answer. But because of the 50$ turn bet.

[darksung 0]

Anyone who says would've laid down this hand is either a fish, a lyer, or someone that needs attentions, in other words, get a life and stop pretending you know everything you fucker

[Shellesund 0]

Anyone who says would've laid down this hand is either a fish, a lyer, or someone that needs attentions, in other words, get a life and stop pretending you know everything you fucker

I`m glad people like you exist.

[Shellesund 0]

Just joking. I`m not, really.

[jlgosse 0]

Stop double-posting and just edit your post.Also, you're saying you'd put your opponent on Ax suited of that suit in this situation? Dream on. There are 4 suits, so even if the player does hold Ax suited, there's a 1/4 chance he's holding the wrong suit, and then alot of the time he probably won't have Ax suited, and just the ace of the suit on the board.The only thing I'd be worried about in this hand is the guy soft-calling the aggressor's bets, but that could just be a sign of weakness, not power.For example, I'd soft-call this flop with say, 45 suited, if I flopped the flush, and have a hard time laying it down unless another card of that suit fell.

[darksung 0]

Right on!If your not willing to lose money on this hand, your playing out of your bankroll, it's as simple as that

[fatmanonguitar 0]

We all agree that this would be a difficult lay-down. At what point would you have changed your game? No one has had any criticism of the preflop and flop play so it comes down to the turn.It was checked to him and he made a pot-sized bet.Other options:check to the river - can't agree with this because of the possible nut flush draw. And with a brick on the river, albari probably would have check-raised or bet into you forcing you to push resulting in the same outcome.smaller turn bet - the only way this could save him money is if he committed to laying down if albari came over the top all-in. If albari continues his slow-play and simply calls your smaller bet, then you think you're golden with the brick on the river and end up losing all your chips (same outcome).

[john kane 0]

i have to make a return to post on this thread.what a horrific turn bet.if i ever made that turn bet id quit for a few days and rethink why im playing online poker - and my answer, if i made that turn bet, would be because i was getting far too greedy and wanting to win monster pots.simply horrific turn bet.what information have you managed to gain from your opponent here with your bets exactly? try none, you have no idea whatsoever what your opponent has. none.id of bet 25 on the turn.now if he min raises he has you beat, a min raise he wont be trying to get you to fold. and if he had the 10J straight he would most likely of check raised big the flop assuming at that point nobody has hit the flush and trying to take the hand down there (not a play id advise, but most online players would). now when you bet 25 on the turn, a slightly escalating bet, he will now think you are trying to build up the pot and so with 10J he wil most likely flat call. he will fold to a 50 buck bet - your making him more likely to make a mistake by betting 25 whereas he simply cannot make a mistake by you betting 50 unless he has serious poker issues.if he flat calls your 25, he either has the ace high flush draw or the nuts. if he has the nuts he will be slowplaying it, by checking on the turn and then either flat calling or min raising to 50 (either way, if you get min raised you fold, he's seen you show strength on both flop and turn yet is still choosing to min raise you - he doesnt have the straight - he has the ace high flusg. if he flat called his ace high flush on the turn hed then most likely bet out on the river of a 40 or so sized bet, expecting you to check it on the river as he know you dont have the nuts - he does. and if he does check the river you switfly check as well, why bother betting say 30 with his only moves are then fold or raise all in with his ace high flush or folding with his missed ace high flush draw.you need to learn not to escalate pots so early in the hand. why are you pushing all you chips in when your only getting called by the ace high flush (or straight flush). why? why oh why? do you reckon when the flop is seen multi way and a guy with the 10J straight is calling that 50 buck bet? no, hes not. heads up yes, he may put you on an overpair with a diamond. but not a mutli way flop.you got greedy. you hit a good flop and wanted a big pot so your account has a good boost. you failed to show any caution, you failed to gain any information from your opponent on the turn by not betting it with a 25 buck bet.terrible 50 buck bet.its plays like that which is why i make the money i do online. you need to learn from these plays. you had postion and yet you ended out pushing effectively all in on the turn without the nuts having seen the flop mutli way. you never gained any information from him.

[jlgosse 0]

Why would the opponent not check raise with any flush though? You're argument isn't very sound.If you flop a flush, no matter how high it is, people are going to play it the basically the same way, especially if no other of that suit falls.Basically you're saying that any flush but the ace high flush is a waste of time to play, so you're telling everyone not to play suited connectors and other large, suited cards, and only play Ax suited.Sounds pretty horrible to me.

[justblaze 0]

i have to make a return to post on this thread.what a horrific turn bet.if i ever made that turn bet id quit for a few days and rethink why im playing online poker - and my answer, if i made that turn bet, would be because i was getting far too greedy and wanting to win monster pots.simply horrific turn bet.what information have you managed to gain from your opponent here with your bets exactly? try none, you have no idea whatsoever what your opponent has. none.id of bet 25 on the turn.now if he min raises he has you beat, a min raise he wont be trying to get you to fold. and if he had the 10J straight he would most likely of check raised big the flop assuming at that point nobody has hit the flush and trying to take the hand down there (not a play id advise, but most online players would). now when you bet 25 on the turn, a slightly escalating bet, he will now think you are trying to build up the pot and so with 10J he wil most likely flat call. he will fold to a 50 buck bet - your making him more likely to make a mistake by betting 25 whereas he simply cannot make a mistake by you betting 50 unless he has serious poker issues.if he flat calls your 25, he either has the ace high flush draw or the nuts. if he has the nuts he will be slowplaying it, by checking on the turn and then either flat calling or min raising to 50 (either way, if you get min raised you fold, he's seen you show strength on both flop and turn yet is still choosing to min raise you - he doesnt have the straight - he has the ace high flusg. if he flat called his ace high flush on the turn hed then most likely bet out on the river of a 40 or so sized bet, expecting you to check it on the river as he know you dont have the nuts - he does. and if he does check the river you switfly check as well, why bother betting say 30 with his only moves are then fold or raise all in with his ace high flush or folding with his missed ace high flush draw.you need to learn not to escalate pots so early in the hand. why are you pushing all you chips in when your only getting called by the ace high flush (or straight flush). why? why oh why? do you reckon when the flop is seen multi way and a guy with the 10J straight is calling that 50 buck bet? no, hes not. heads up yes, he may put you on an overpair with a diamond. but not a mutli way flop.you got greedy. you hit a good flop and wanted a big pot so your account has  a good boost. you failed to show any caution, you failed to gain any information from your opponent on the turn by not betting it with a 25 buck bet.terrible 50 buck bet.its plays like that which is why i make the money i do online.  you need to learn from these plays. you had postion and yet you ended out pushing effectively all in on the turn without the nuts having seen the flop mutli way. you never gained any information from him.

lol, what a bunch of sh1t. theres all kinds of draws you'd like to price out here, as well as all kinds of inferior hands that might call you. can you say WEAKTIGHT?

[KidKanuck 0]

The OP did not play this hand poorly. The call on the end was right as well. After the CR on the turn the OP was almost certainly beat but had no coice but to call as he was priced into the pot. I think it was just a case where the winner of the pot played it very well and ensured that he would get maximum value from his hand...and the OP was the unlucky victim in the plot.JMOKK

[john kane 0]

some people still have a huge amount to learn - i am still learning, everyone is, but this is a pretty basic hand horribly played. okay;

Why would the opponent not check raise with any flush though?

so he's up against the preflop raiser and has seen the flop multi way and he hits a low flush and the the preflop raiser is still showing strength both on the flop and on the turn. by checking raising the other player clearly therefore is indicating he wants to get all his chips in. now why would he want to do that? ace high flush maybe? yes, thats why.

Basically you're saying that any flush but the ace high flush is a waste of time to play, so you're telling everyone not to play suited connectors and other large, suited cards, and only play Ax suited.

where on earth did i say that? with suited connectors your obviously either looking to hit a massive pot with the nut straight vs say a set, and by hitting a flush your looking to hit the flush draw with position on the flop and getting implied pot odds to call vs a guy you think may have a set or top pair or two pair. you should never be pushing all you chips in with a low flush? is a set or two pair really going to call? err..no.just because you hit a flush with your suited connectors doesnt mean your have the best hand, so your looking to beat someone who has hit a set/two pair.

[Shellesund 0]

Stop double-posting and just edit your post.Also, you're saying you'd put your opponent on Ax suited of that suit in this situation? Dream on. There are 4 suits, so even if the player does hold Ax suited, there's a 1/4 chance he's holding the wrong suit, and then alot of the time he probably won't have Ax suited, and just the ace of the suit on the board.The only thing I'd be worried about in this hand is the guy soft-calling the aggressor's bets, but that could just be a sign of weakness, not power.For example, I'd soft-call this flop with say, 45 suited, if I flopped the flush, and have a hard time laying it down unless another card of that suit fell.

And where did it say I put him on anything? In fact, I stated that I`d be even MORE careful if I couldn`t put him on a hand. I simply mentioned that Ax suited is always played on this level. We don`t know much about this other player do we, and I`ve admitted that I would have problems laying it down. It`s just they play (turn bet in particular) I don`t agree with, and all the people saying that you couldn`t possibly lay it down. You can. I`ve done it. Someone else on this forum have probably done it. The concept "great laydown" wouldn`t have existed otherwise.I don`t want to tell people to be scared of the nuts every time they don`t have it. In fact, I advise people otherwise. You cannot always trust YOUR cards to be the best either, `cause you`ll be broke in a flash. But there is a middle ground, and you have to look for the signs. I think that his opponent gave signs of having the nuts. Call me crazy.

[fatmanonguitar 0]

I totally agree with your thoughts on the turn bet. It's the type of bet that will likely only get called (or raised) if you are beat. That being said, the turn bet has to be big enough to make a nut flush draw fold. Half the pot should do it.Forgetting about the misplayed turn, you have to admit that in low-limit HE, a K-high flush is a very tough hand to lay down regardless of your opponent's betting pattern. i.e., odds are your opponent is playing a low flush/set/draw poorly rather than playing the nut flush well.

[Shellesund 0]

I totally agree with your thoughts on the turn bet.  It's the type of bet that will likely only get called (or raised) if you are beat.  That being said, the turn bet has to be big enough to make a nut flush draw fold.  Half the pot should do it.Forgetting about the misplayed turn, you have to admit that in low-limit HE, a K-high flush is a very tough hand to lay down regardless of your opponent's betting pattern.  i.e., odds are your opponent is playing a low flush/set/draw poorly rather than playing the nut flush well.

Good one.

[jlgosse 0]

He did show signs of a strong hand, but that's not to say he has something worse, especially playing micro-limits, I'm just saying you can't assume he has the best possible hand because he's showing it.There are many variables in this hand, I'm just saying that I think the poster played it pretty well, and that in most cases his hand is going to win.

[john kane 0]

That being said, the turn bet has to be big enough to make a nut flush draw fold.

i like your post, but i would like to add that rather than the aboveyou do not want a fold here if he is drawing to the nut flush. you want to bet the amount so that he is getting incorrect implied odds odds to call.the pot at this point is $50.if you bet $25 you want him to call. why? as i said in my previous post, if then misses his flush you check and win the pot. if he then hits his 1 in 5 odds approx of his river diamond he will either:a) check, expecting you to bet, which you obviously dont. so his called $25 on a 1 in 5 hit when he has recieving 3 to 1 on his money on his turn call. he has made an error, you have gained.B) he will bet around 40 bucks hoping you to call. you fold. he called the turn bet on a 1 in 5 hit when he was recieving 3 to 1 on his money - he made an error in calling.so your bet of $25 if he was drawng has meant you have made him make a mistake for you to profit. well done, good bet. oh but you bet $50 didnt you....edit: just to clarify, he may well be calling the $25 expecting to make a lot on the river if the diamond hits - you know he wont be exrtracting any any sizable bet whatsoever. because you wont be calling or making a big bet