should i have been able to lay this down?

[cheet 0]

***** Hand History for Game 1954215809 *****$100 NL Hold'em - Tuesday, April 26, 01:38:14 EDT 2005Table Table 37077 (Real Money)Seat 4 is the buttonTotal number of players : 10 Seat 2: jcn47 ( $194.35 )Seat 3: cuyahogaman ( $0 )Seat 4: Dumbluck24 ( $120.9 )Seat 5: idiotray ( $351.95 )Seat 6: ninjacrayon ( $109.85 )Seat 7: JBknows1013 ( $151.55 )Seat 8: IZZYMANDLBOM ( $100.75 )Seat 10: choder130 ( $140.21 )Seat 1: cheet ( $148.29 )Seat 9: albari ( $101.38 )ninjacrayon posts small blind [$0.5].JBknows1013 posts big blind [$1].** Dealing down cards **Dealt to cheet [ Kd Qd ]cuyahogaman has left the table.IZZYMANDLBOM folds.albari calls [$1].choder130 folds.>You have options at Table 36776 Table!.cheet raises [$4].TeinGuy has joined the table.jcn47 calls [$4].Dumbluck24 folds.ninjacrayon folds.JBknows1013 calls [$3].albari calls [$3].** Dealing Flop ** [ 9d, 7d, 8d ]JBknows1013 checks.>You have options at Table 36776 Table!.albari checks.>You have options at Table 36576 Table!.cheet bets [$15].jcn47 folds.JBknows1013 folds.albari calls [$15].** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]>You have options at Table 36576 Table!.albari checks.>You have options at Table 36576 Table!.cheet bets [$50].>You have options at Table 36601 Table!.albari is all-In [$82.38]cheet calls [$32.38].** Dealing River ** [ 7s ]cheet shows [ Kd, Qd ] a flush, king high.albari shows [ 2d, Ad ] a flush, ace high.albari wins $208.26 from the main pot with a flush, ace high with ace kicker.Should I have been able to figure that out and been able to lay the hand down? Or is this just as unlucky as holding Kings agaisnt someones Aces?

[Ebonwoulfe 0]

This is hopefully the first in a very short series of expensive lessons.The general theme of these lessons is "Don't get all the money in when the only guy who is going to call you is going to beat the shit out of you"Don't forget, you lost $100 in what began over a fight for $1.50.What other hand could he have? After the flopped nut flush, the next reasonable hand to call a $50 bet with is... the J high flush (don't forget, he sure as hell didn't just make a K or Q high flush, because you have both of them)? A set on a freakishly coordinated board? The A high flush draw? Assuming he is a reasonable player, you can probably safely assume he's not doing these things.In NL the goal is to trap your opponents for lots of chips while avoiding the traps yourself.In this case, you did neither. You pushed in a big bet so that you insured yourself that the only guy who was going to call you was the guy that could beat you. Bets like that in this situation are seriously losing plays.On that note, do you realize that putting in a raise that is too large with QQ preflop makes it somewhat equal in value to 22? Because if you bet too big, the only guys that can call your QQ are the guys who are going to have just as easy of a time beating 2-2, namely AA or KK.

[wrto4556 0]

wtf??This hand was played fine.I must have read the above post wrong or something...

[highstackpoker 0]

i agree and disagree with ebonwoulfeThe simple fact is that at the 100 buyin level...this guy could have EASILY been making this move with ANY flopped flush...much more so with the J high...He may have very well done this with JTo with the J diamonds for all we know...the fact of the matter is that at that buy in level...a MAJORITY of the players are not that skilled...therefor, i find no fault in the way this particular hand was played....just unlucky in my opinion....However, i strongly agree with your advice though and it sounds a LOT like you konw what your talking about. I think the problem here lies that your knowledge and skill probably exceeds what is necessary to win at this level...and youre almost outplaying yourself (if this were you). I suspect you would play very well at the 1000 buy in level and not nearly as well at the 100 buy in level for this reason. Nice insight regarding the QQ--> 22 play...few people grasp this concept...See ya on the battlefield

[wrto4556 0]

Did yall miss that the guy bet into us on the turn?You have to be, more or less, brain dead to make this fold.

[Shellesund 0]

Ebonwoulfe is right on. If you look deep inside yourself, you know you should have let this one go. Right?

[wrto4556 0]

Ebonwoulfe is right on. If you look deep inside yourself, you know you should have let this one go. Right?

No. More times than not you have a dumbass overplaying a set or a smaller flush.

[TruePoker 1]

It is good to see that most people say to fold because they know he had an Ace high flush. If they were at the table I think they would have played the same.

[bsabres81 0]

Anyone who folds this hand in a cash game is an absolute fish. How weak-tight can you be? In a live game where you have a fabulous read on the player, or in a rare tournament situation, this hand is foldable, or at least check-callable. There are a tremendous amount of holdings you could easily be up against that your opponent thinks to be the best hand. The nut flush is a possibility, but so are all the following hands:A 10 (nut flush draw and an open-ended straight draw, a hand that is a favorite against your range of possible hands)A 9 (nut flush draw and top pair, also favored against most of your range of hands)A x (people fall in love with this hand)a set of 9s (people won't fold sets)a set of 8s (people won't fold sets)a set of 7s (people won't fold sets)any 10 J (anyone who called a raise with 10 J isn't folding now)10 10 (another hand that is very difficult to get away from)

[GT123 0]

don't post results next time, and cut off the action for yourself ,and ask if you should call. I'll bet 100% of the people would tell you to call.

[JistTheFist 0]

actually, he checked into us on the flop, and check-raised the turn...I don't think you could have got away from this hand, but what ebonwoulfe said is very key. You were making bets that (most of the time) only a stronger hand would call.he checked to you on flop and turn, the bet on the flop was fine, but once he checked to you on the turn... why not take the free card, make sure the board doesn't pair, see how he reacts if another diamond falls, cuz then he might make a value-bet into on the riv of something like $30-$40 that you have to call instead of $85....

[bsabres81 0]

GT123 wrote,

I'll bet 100% of the people would tell you to call.

Hopefully.

[JistTheFist 0]

of course... checking the turn might be too weak of a move, after consecutive checks on the flop and turn I would probably have pegged him on a hand like A9 with just the naked ace of diamonds... so I wouldn't want him to draw out on me... I don't know... would have to have more of a feel for the player to make a decision there.

[wrto4556 0]

why not take the free card, make sure the board doesn't pair...

1) You don't want to give a free card to the naked A . That would be silly.2) This isn't tournament poker. If you get your money in with the best hand, you profit (I realize our hand wasn't best in this case, but it is most of the time).PS. Did he really check/raise?PSS. The betting was goofy, but there is no way you make this fold and watch your win rate grow at the same time.

[Smasharoo 0]

No. More times than not you have a dumbass overplaying a set or a smaller flush.Yeah nothing's worse than a dumbass overplaying a K high flush.....

[JistTheFist 0]

why not take the free card, make sure the board doesn't pair...

1) You don't want to give a free card to the naked A . That would be silly.2) This isn't tournament poker. If you get your money in with the best hand, you profit (I realize our hand wasn't best in this case, but it is most of the time).PS. Did he really check/raise?PSS. The betting was goofy, but there is no way you make this fold and watch your win rate grow at the same time.

1) yeah I already addressed that in a post I said myself... Of course I would have to know more about the guy to make a decision on the turn... does he typically chase, will he check-raise me if I bet, how loose-or-tight is he in his preflop hands, is he a calling station with any pair?... if I think he may be trapping me, i'll let the next card come. if I think he's on the draw then I play it the exact same way the OP did...2) yes I agree, I guess maybe I'm a little weaker than I should be... sometimes I find myself looking at situations and trying to find ways to win the pot and minimize my losses if I'm behind instead of looking for ways to maximize my winnings... playing too scared.3) yes read it again... he check-called the flop, then checked to us on the turn again, we bet $50 and he went all-in for abou $30 more than us... we have to call $30 in a pot of about $120... as long as our hand is good one of four times we're set.4) like i said in my first post... I highly doubt I would be able to get away from this hand. BUT if, I had enough info on my opponent it could become much, much easier.

[SapphireTiger 0]

flopping the king high flush when someone else flopped an ace high flush. you would have misplayed the hand if you let another diamond hit to the nut flush but no more diamonds came. i really don't htink you could get away form this hand because you have the 2nd nut (i don't think he would have stayed in with JTd or 65d or T6d).i think it's unlucky that this happened, and you'll win in the long run by making this same play because the majority of the time people will be overplaying their set or their straight or whatever.

[akishore 0]

i'm really surprised at the responses.i don't pretend to know everything, and i very well might be wrong, but i never fold this in a million years.i agree strongly with wrto, and more so, bsabres.maybe in a higher stakes game, i would consider it, but even then, i DON'T think it's a usually correct laydown.i REALLY think a lot of people are being biased based on the results, but of course, there's no way to prove that.aseem

[Shellesund 0]

No. More times than not you have a dumbass overplaying a set or a smaller flush.Yeah nothing's worse than a dumbass overplaying a K high flush.....

Lol. Thanks. Now it doesn`t happen that often; But if you keep insisting on believing you have the best of it with a King high flush, and are also willing to bet all of your money on it when an opponent reraises you, well then I think there`s room for improvement in your game. No disrespect.It doesn`t happen that often---------> Suited Kx vs. same suit Ax flopping the flush, I mean...

[Shellesund 0]

Aseem has a point though. It`s difficult to answer this when we already know what the outcome was. But I don`t really believe him when he says he wouldn`t have layed it down in a million years... That`s like saying I don`t know that there is flush that can beat King high flush.AND, people are coloured by the amount of money involved, even though they try to have a poker-neutral view to it. For some people, this is pocket change, but for others, it`s a decent sum.AND, we don`t know this player (at least I don`t) and how he plays. If he is the kind of player that only play the nuts, well....and if he is the kind of player that don`t know if a boat beats a straight...well...you know...

[Shellesund 0]

don't post results next time, and cut off the action for yourself ,and ask if you should call. I'll bet 100% of the people would tell you to call.

How much?

[Smasharoo 0]

Now it doesn`t happen that often; But if you keep insisting on believing you have the best of it with a King high flush, and are also willing to bet all of your money on it when an opponent reraises you, well then I think there`s room for improvement in your game. No disrespect. You're wrong, I was just making a joke.If you're not going to call here, don't play KQs at all.

[akishore 0]

shellesund, you're right, i exxagerated in saying that i would never make the laydown in a million years. still, it would take an exceptional read and exceptional circumstances for me to lay it down.listen, i can consider laying down a 5-high flush. i've been in those situations before. but to lay down the second nut flush... well, if you read my "worst hand of my life" post, you know i've learned my lesson. the only time i've laid down the second nut flush is when i was on fairly passive tilt after my biggest losing session ever.i can't imagine laying this down under normal circumstances.aseemp.s. smash, that was hilarious. i had no idea you were joking, either... your post was so dry! you remind me of billy collins a lot. have you ever read his stuff? his dry humor is the best, and he's also an extremely funny guy in person (we've met) simply because of his monotone and his extreme dryness. check out his stuff if you get a chance and haven't already.

[friji 0]

I think your missing an incredibly key ingrediant in this hand.The Turn.4s did not affect this board at all, there was not a single hand that you could beat before the turn, which had caught you.When your opponent decides that the irrelevant turn card is the correct opportunity to move in then I think you have to believe, honestly, that you have been suckered.What I am trying to convey is that the there was an obvious pattern of betting here. He called the flop, and then when an irrelevant turn card came he shoved. I think this in itself is a sign that he may already have you beaten.However, the vastness that is NL Hold'em obviously leaves room for a multitude of options. I think the key to this hand is your betting.There was apx $15 in the pot on the flop. Betting the pot seems excellent, how ever when the turn comes and there is apx $45 in the pot, why Bet $50? Your trapped yourself with a bet too large that the you know if your called your beaten. Ebonwoulfe got it perfect here. If you bet, say $30 on the flop you give yourself an opportunity to get out. When he rases you an extra $35 bucks, into a pot that approacing $180 you think "well thats worth it". Had you slowed down on the turn you may have found yourself with a better opportunity to fold."Anyone who folds this hand in a cash game is an absolute fish. How weak-tight can you be? " said bsabres81It amazes me when players take this angle. In this hand you had a player who had flopped the Nut flush and a player who had flopped the K flush. Therefor, in order for the KFlush to play correctly he should at some point fold his hand, having lost the least ammount of money. Online poker may not provide the opportuniy for as many reads, but the signs are out there. If you fold in this situation your not a fish, your making a great lay down. If you can learn when they have you beaten and when you have them beaten, then youve won most of the battle I think.Then again I may kist be talking crap...

[akishore 0]

friji, in a higher stakes game, your advice is dead-on.the problem is, at these limits, the following things can happen:1. a jack-high flush will get excited and slowplay the same way. some fish will also play a set the same way, not realizing that they might be beat (i'm NOT kidding).2. an ace-high flush DRAW might not want to lay it down, and when facing a big bet on the turn, might just push all-in almost out of frustration. again, this is applicable to the limits. i'm NOT kidding--fish play like this often.3. similar hands, though to a lesser extent than the ace-high flush draw, would push on the turn without the nut flush. a fish with a set/two-pair/straight might also just push, thinking that you're just betting with the ace flush draw.again, your advice is solid at the higher limits. the OP should have bet less on the turn to give him more visibility and allow him to get off the hand easier. at these limits, however, i don't think it's practical to bet less with the intention of folding to a raise what might be the best hand in many circumstances.aseem