B/3-bet River Bluff

[Moneyball16 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Decided to try something new and started shortstacking NL and Ive had good results so far, but Im still very inexperienced at online NL. This is my first round at the table.MP1 ($1.35)MP2 ($17.90)CO ($40)Button ($41.05)SB ($37.20)BB ($54.50)Moneyball ($18.35)UTG+1 ($81.60)Preflop: Moneyball is UTG with 3 , 3 . Moneyball calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.With my stack size should I be doing something else here preflop.Flop: ($2) 7 , 2 , 7 (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Moneyball bets $0.65, MP2 raises to $1.3, SB folds, BB folds, Moneyball raises to $3, MP2 calls $1.70.I felt like my hand was best but also very vulnerable to overcards so I bet. I made a small bet because of the texture of the flop. I would bet this amount with all my betting hands with this flop texture fwiw. I felt his raise was an information raise and that I would tell him that hes beat. Once he called I decide to give up.Should I have bet the flop? Should I have folded to the raise?Turn: ($8) A (2 players)Moneyball checks, MP2 checks.Anyone fire another shell?After he checked behind I put him on a mid to low PP.River: ($8) A (2 players)Moneyball bets $2.5, MP2 raises to $5, Moneyball raises to $14.85?After I put him on a mid to low PP I decided that I would be able to get him to lay down alot of those hands with a smallish bet. Once he minraised me I put him on a bluff with a counter fitted pair like mine thinking that he wouldnt play anything but 44-66 like this and shoved. I guess he couldve had 77,22 and got tricky on me or have A2s and checked behind on the turn for pot control.Should I have initially bet smaller or larger or not at all? Is this bluff gonna work enough in the long run to shove allin after he raises me?

[No_Neck 0]

little hint for you, river raises are 90% the nuts, either fire on the turn or check fold, don't wake up on the river it doesn't make sense.most villians aren't capable of bluffing on the river I have found.

[Ricer98 0]

I'd fold this preflop. Your UTG with only a pair of 3's and you don't even have a full buy in on the table if you do happen to hit. Even with a full buy in I'd still fold because I never open limp into pots, its a weak play. At the same time I don't want to raise 3's from UTG at a full table, so that leaves fold. Flop bet is horrible, make a strong lead at this flop, give people a reason the fold. I agree you might have the best hand so you need to cut down the field. If you make a strong lead and get raised its an easy easy fold. As played, fold once your raised on the flop. If your going to 3 bet him to "tell him he's beat", put in a decient reraise next time. Your giving the villian 3.7 to 1 odds to call your reraise.If your going to bluff the river, again, bet a substantial amount. Give the villian a reason to fold. Or better yet, check fold your hand instead of throwing away money. Shoving here after he min raises you is so so so so bad. What are you representing? Did you 3 bet the flop with an ace in your hand, probably not. Why would you check a seven on the turn. If you had an overpair and didn't like that ace on the turn why are you all of a sudden moving alot of chips in now that another one hit. If I'm the villian I'm giving you a range of AA or a bluff, with the emphasis on the bluff. No other hands really hit the way you played this except for AA. You might limp in from EP to be tricky, flop play would be standardish, then check the turn after boating up. I think putting a single chip into this pot on the river is -EV long term.I don't really like any part of this hand, not to mention buying in short. If your afraid to lose a full buy in play lower limits. Having less than a full buy in just cost you value from your big hands and restricts you play.

[Moneyball16 0]

I'd fold this preflop. Your UTG with only a pair of 3's and you don't even have a full buy in on the table if you do happen to hit. Even with a full buy in I'd still fold because I never open limp into pots, its a weak play. At the same time I don't want to raise 3's from UTG at a full table, so that leaves fold. Flop bet is horrible, make a strong lead at this flop, give people a reason the fold. I agree you might have the best hand so you need to cut down the field. If you make a strong lead and get raised its an easy easy fold. As played, fold once your raised on the flop. If your going to 3 bet him to "tell him he's beat", put in a decient reraise next time. Your giving the villian 3.7 to 1 odds to call your reraise.If your going to bluff the river, again, bet a substantial amount. Give the villian a reason to fold. Or better yet, check fold your hand instead of throwing away money. Shoving here after he min raises you is so so so so bad. What are you representing? Did you 3 bet the flop with an ace in your hand, probably not. Why would you check a seven on the turn. If you had an overpair and didn't like that ace on the turn why are you all of a sudden moving alot of chips in now that another one hit. If I'm the villian I'm giving you a range of AA or a bluff, with the emphasis on the bluff. No other hands really hit the way you played this except for AA. You might limp in from EP to be tricky, flop play would be standardish, then check the turn after boating up. I think putting a single chip into this pot on the river is -EV long term.I don't really like any part of this hand, not to mention buying in short. If your afraid to lose a full buy in play lower limits. Having less than a full buy in just cost you value from your big hands and restricts you play.

Do most of you guys fold PP utg even with a full buy-in. I cant imagine folding them under most table conditions in that spot.I agree that I should have folded to the raise on the flop and made a bigger reraise if thats what I decided to do, but I still like my initial bet. On the river I wasnt expecting him to fold anything but 44-66 and maybe 88 and 99 and I dont think I have to bet a big amount to give villain a reason to fold 44-66.Buying in short has its advantages and disadvantages either is fine imo.

[ghoti 0]

Do most of you guys fold PP utg even with a full buy-in. I cant imagine folding them under most table conditions in that spot.

Small PP utg? I usually fold to a full table. If I do play small/mid PP utg I would rather come in for a raise. Unless you have a strong edge in post-flop play I think utg limping with weak PP is going to lead you into trouble more often than not. Also I'm not a fan of the half buy in for NL games. On the long run I think you're losing money by not extracting max value when you get in ahead stack vs stack.

[Moneyball16 0]

I really dont want this thread to become an argument about how much to buy in for.

[No_Neck 0]

I really dont want this thread to become an argument about how much to buy in for.

just for the record I never fold PP in NL as long as I have 15-20ish times the raise. (Depends how easy the raiser will stack off)

[ghoti 0]

just for the record I never fold PP in NL as long as I have 15-20ish times the raise. (Depends how easy the raiser will stack off)

What do you do utg?

[Ricer98 0]

Do most of you guys fold PP utg even with a full buy-in. I cant imagine folding them under most table conditions in that spot.I agree that I should have folded to the raise on the flop and made a bigger reraise if thats what I decided to do, but I still like my initial bet. On the river I wasnt expecting him to fold anything but 44-66 and maybe 88 and 99 and I dont think I have to bet a big amount to give villain a reason to fold 44-66.Buying in short has its advantages and disadvantages either is fine imo.

Do you make this bet with AA, KK, flopped set? If not betting weak with a weak hand is a bad idea. Your telling your opponents you have a weak hand. If you are making this bet with strong hands all you are doing is not getting enough value from your big hands and inviting middle pair to draw out on you.On the river you need to make a big bet to get a fold. As I said your line doesn't make sense for a big hands. If I'm MP2 I'm calling that weak bet with every single hand that I called the flop with. Yeah your gonna fold 44-66 with a min bet because they are playing two pair on the board with a 4-6 kicker. 88-99 aren't folding to this bet. I don't see how the villian doesn't have a 7 or 88+ so I wouldn't even be worried about folding out 44-66. Just let this pot go.As far as small pairs UTG, I play 6 max so at that kind of table I'm opening every pair from UTG. Full ring, depending on your play, its better to just pass on these. You can probably agree you don't want to be raising 33 UTG and having 8-9 left to act behind you. The only way you can get away limping them occasionaly is if the whole table knows your capable of limping your big hands from UTG as well. If your raising with AA and limping 55 its easy to pick up that every time you limp you have a weak hand. At these low of limits I wouldn't even waste your time limping big hands occasionally to allow yourself to limp in with smaller pairs. Most players aren't going to realize what your doing so your really just setting your big hands up to get out flopped.

[NoBBiR 0]

You're not really losing a lot of money limping small pocket pairs UTG and calling a 3 or 4x raise in most NL games. Live, obviously, where the raises are as much as 10x, then yes, folding them in EP makes more sense. I also don't mind limping Small PP's in EP and calling a standard raise, or raising it up myself. I prefer limp/calling though so the pot doesn't get out of control.As for the hand, I hate calling the raise on the flop, I hate not betting the turn if you're going to reraise the flop, and I hate betting the river. Minraising machines are almost always the nuts, especially at micro's.Fold flop to raise, bet turn, and check river. BLah!

[Ricer98 0]

You're not really losing a lot of money limping small pocket pairs UTG and calling a 3 or 4x raise in most NL games. Live, obviously, where the raises are as much as 10x, then yes, folding them in EP makes more sense. I also don't mind limping Small PP's in EP and calling a standard raise, or raising it up myself. I prefer limp/calling though so the pot doesn't get out of control.

Problem is if you only limp small pairs from EP your telling observant opponents your hand. If I pick up that your only limping or mostly only limping weak hands from EP I'm pretty much going to start raising any two suited and isolating you in pots.

[Scott3705 0]

Problem is if you only limp small pairs from EP your telling observant opponents your hand. If I pick up that your only limping or mostly only limping weak hands from EP I'm pretty much going to start raising any two suited and isolating you in pots.

Good luck with then when OP is willing to go nuts like he did in this hand. I never fold them with a full-buyin, but probably fold them short stacked. (I don't play short stacked at all/suck at tournaments so I'm not really good at commenting on that)As for the rest of the hand, you're raising into a 7. I'd like to hear your thoughts on why it's a mid pair (which probably calls the river)