Anybody Dig This Line Against A Bad Lag?

[antistuff 0]

I'm trying to recognize situations where it makes sense for my opponent to bluff at me and let them.----------------------Full Tilt PokerPot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.508 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $34.05UTG+1: $24.15MP1: $52.70Hero: $47CO: $76.70Button: $17.95SB: $25.70BB: $6Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is MP2 with A J A 6 UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $2.25, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls.Flop: K 6 K ($5.25, 2 players)UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.Turn: 8 ($5.25, 2 players)UTG+1 bets $5.25, Hero calls.River: T ($15.75, 2 players)UTG+1 bets $15.75, Hero calls.Results:Final pot: $47.25

[Frez 0]

I don't think he's bluffing... not OOP like this.

[antistuff 0]

I don't think he's bluffing... not OOP like this.

this hand may have been a bit too much read dependent to post. in general i do feel you are right though. i think calling the turn bet is good against a lot of players but you have to fold that river. against this clown i like calling that river bet all day long and twice on sunday. here's the crappy part...what if a straight card came off or a low card, that ten is about the only card in the deck i like (which i didn't even think of at the time).

[Cappy37 0]

Wow. This really is upper-tier thinking, isn't it? Your high hand certainly is a "bluff catcher" without a strong high (if he has no king) on the board. Your only real fear here is he flopped a boat and is protecting it (Kx, or a pocket pair that hit the set, etc).I think it depends how often we think UTG is firing with air on that river. We certainly are breaking the cardinal rule of O8B: getting overly involved in what began as a small pot with a marginal hand.I know I bail on that turn, with naked aces and no possible low potential in my hand. Yeah, aces HU can certainly take down a pot on their own, but if it's going to cost the full price to contest it, I'd rather try to catch him getting out of line when I'm freerolling instead of blindly defending the only half of the pot I think I can win. Of course, I'm a tourney player, so that may be distorting my view of the proper play here, too.It seems you got a strong read on him, so by all means, play your hunches. I think your situation was a bit worse than you realized as far as calling the turn: I couldn't envision any card short of an ace (and considering he called a pot bet oop PF in a previously unraised pot, he's almost got to have an ace himself, right?) that you welcome warmly on that river. Just about anything low makes a low possible, and I can't feel great seeing any high card come that isn't an ace or a king. On the flip side, it's hard to envision top 2 pair not being good on the river (short of him holding a king), so I don't mind the river bet. I'm not sure we profit much in the long term by chasing this turn/river without any real way to improve our hand. He'd have to be really getting out of line in a lot of pots.

[antistuff 0]

i've figured it out. i hate every river card so much i should raise the turn and not put another dollar in the pot. he is drawing enough where he will call with bad odds and i can buy myself lunch at his expense later. if i raise the turn i am firing if the river is an ace, a two, or a trey. an ace for value and a two or a trey to get him to fold half the pot.

[Chamonyx 0]

pot continuation bet on the flop would have made this a lot easier.

[antistuff 0]

pot continuation bet on the flop would have made this a lot easier.

but then he just folds if he doesnt have a king and calls or raises me if he does. is it not a good idea to try to drag some money out of somebody who is likely to bet?

[Frez 0]

I know I bail on that turn, with naked aces and no possible low potential in my hand. Yeah, aces HU can certainly take down a pot on their own, but if it's going to cost the full price to contest it, I'd rather try to catch him getting out of line when I'm freerolling instead of blindly defending the only half of the pot I think I can win. Of course, I'm a tourney player, so that may be distorting my view of the proper play here, too.

What I've bolded above is key. After the flop is checked around, it's gonna cost you $21 to show down this hand. Are you gonna risk $21 (less rake) to win the $5.25 that's there?Maybe he's not betting the flop because he wants to see if YOU will bluff at it. Then you don't, and a second low card comes on the river. Now he wants to make you pay to draw to the low he thinks you may have. You raised preflop - IF he's thinking, he's thinking you have a good A2, or AAxx. He doesn't appear to be scared of either, so I give him credit for the king.Plan B - if you want to go further with this, you repot the turn. That costs you exactly the same as calling his pot bet on the river, and maybe scares him off his semi-bluff with a weak low draw and a pair for high. And because he has a short stack, he can only throw in another dollar on the river (or a turn reraise) - it's not like he can repot and put you to a decision for all your cash. So, if you're willing to call the big river bet when you are probably beat, go ahead and put it in on the turn. Think ahead and be the aggressor, which gives you that extra way to win - making him fold.

[antistuff 0]

i've figured it out. i hate every river card so much i should raise the turn and not put another dollar in the pot. he is drawing enough where he will call with bad odds and i can buy myself lunch at his expense later. if i raise the turn i am firing if the river is an ace, a two, or a trey. an ace for value and a two or a trey to get him to fold half the pot.

Plan B - if you want to go further with this, you repot the turn. That costs you exactly the same as calling his pot bet on the river, and maybe scares him off his semi-bluff with a weak low draw and a pair for high. And because he has a short stack, he can only throw in another dollar on the river (or a turn reraise) - it's not like he can repot and put you to a decision for all your cash. So, if you're willing to call the big river bet when you are probably beat, go ahead and put it in on the turn. Think ahead and be the aggressor, which gives you that extra way to win - making him fold.

[Cappy37 0]

Plan B - if you want to go further with this, you repot the turn. That costs you exactly the same as calling his pot bet on the river, and maybe scares him off his semi-bluff with a weak low draw and a pair for high. And because he has a short stack, he can only throw in another dollar on the river (or a turn reraise) - it's not like he can repot and put you to a decision for all your cash. So, if you're willing to call the big river bet when you are probably beat, go ahead and put it in on the turn. Think ahead and be the aggressor, which gives you that extra way to win - making him fold.

Whats your Stars name? So I can stay the hell away from you on the table, obv.Now that it's been stated, repopping the turn is positively genius. It makes me actually not want to fold here, is that a good thing?

[Frez 0]

Whats your Stars name? So I can stay the hell away from you on the table, obv.Now that it's been stated, repopping the turn is positively genius. It makes me actually not want to fold here, is that a good thing?

LOL, I'm touched. When I play on Stars, it's as Oilfan72, and you'll likely find me at 2/4 HORSE. I've played virturally no PLO8 since the spring of 2006 though. Stupid of me - I started playing online in the fall of 2005, lost money for a few months in LHE, then found PLO8 and loved it, and totally rebuilt my bankroll. Then I decided to challenge Stud, then back to LHE, then LO8. None of those has been as good for me as PLO8 was. So I really should get back to it.I'm not sure if popping the turn is genius, although I like the sound of 'genius'. I probably fold the turn, BUT if you think ahead and decide you're going to showdown the hand no matter what, then repot >>>>> call.

[Cappy37 0]

LOL, I'm touched. When I play on Stars, it's as Oilfan72, and you'll likely find me at 2/4 HORSE. I've played virturally no PLO8 since the spring of 2006 though. Stupid of me - I started playing online in the fall of 2005, lost money for a few months in LHE, then found PLO8 and loved it, and totally rebuilt my bankroll. Then I decided to challenge Stud, then back to LHE, then LO8. None of those has been as good for me as PLO8 was. So I really should get back to it.I'm not sure if popping the turn is genius, although I like the sound of 'genius'. I probably fold the turn, BUT if you think ahead and decide you're going to showdown the hand no matter what, then repot >>>>> call.

Popping that turn is hands down the best possible line if you "must win" that hand considering how short the Villain actually is. Especially when your main goal is isolation and that re-raise is so strong it pushes the Button out of the hand.Definitely get back into PLO8. LHE has a lot of dead money, but it's dead money that can hurt you. Between HORSE, Stud, and PLO8, that dead money stays dead. Nothing better for your pocketbook in this world than watching weak HORSE players try and play Razz and Stud 8.I'm in the same boat you are, because I'm absolutely crushing the 8-16 man Horse/Razz turbo SNGS and the 10 man PLO SNGS. I've doubled my $60 bankroll to $120 this month, my Sharkscope graph looks like I literally won the lottery. But even at $120 you can argue $3.40 is still too big a buy in (esp in turbo format) for my online roll. Really sitting on my hands waiting to clear my last few FPPs of my bonus, because that would definitely put me in the right wheelhouse (45 buy ins), and I really cannot envision not profiting large from them. My only real question is: why a 13.3% vig for a tourney that doesnt even last an hour? Shouldn't they be $3+ .30s? And can't we get Horse/Razz sngs for less than 5 bucks a pop that aren't turbo? You know there is exactly 0 razz sngs on stars that are non-turbo? You can't find one, they aren't there.

[Frez 0]

Tough it out until you get the $$ to play up. I agree, I avoid turbos like plague. I want time to play properly. Because I'm a bonus whore, I mostly play cash games for the points, but my win record on $5-10 HORSE sit'n'goes is great, and the one time I played the Saturday night $22 HORSE MTT I final tabled. Like you said, I LOVE playing the Stud games with Hold'em players. If Stars offered more bonuses, I'd never play anywhere else. HORSE games are rare on AP and UB at 1/2 - 3/6 where I like to play. Well, AP doesn't even offer HORSE tables, which is stupid since they have HORSE tournaments.

[litlebullet 0]

I just had a hand very similar to this I'd like to link it here later but the villain and another guy were talking a lot of shit to me so I thought there was a good chance he was bluffing... would chat have any leverage on how you would call down w/ aces

[litlebullet 0]

double post

[jjgoldy5 0]

I don't mind the river call, or how you played this GIVEN YOUR READ. It really depends if you have seen him follow through with multi-street bluffs before. If so - insta call the river.