0.25/0.50. 88 Versing Utg Raise... Weak River?

[Roo6339 0]

Villain has played 17 hands, so no real read. I haven't seen him do anything amazingly out of line or anything so far.PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8, 8. UTG raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.Flop: (12 SB) 7, 6, 2(6 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.Turn: (9 BB) 4(3 players)UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, UTG calls.River: (12 BB) 4(3 players)UTG bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds.Final Pot: 14 BBMy questions:Fold pre-flop, call or raise? Is this one of those spots where calling is the worst line?Flop and turn standard yes?Now the river... Is this a raising spot, or a calling spot? I usually raise donkbets, but I'm trying to work on obtaining reads first (see my thread on QJs versing a donkbet flop).

[Zach6668 513]

Donkbets on the flop are way differetn than river donkbets.Just call here, and it's incredibly not at all close.Oh, and flop is standard for the way preflop is played, turn as well.However, I 3-bet this preflop vs the people in my aggressive games, but I imagine some people fold as well, particularly in passive games. If the table is super loose, then a coldcall isn't awful. I'm certain SSHE would say fold here though, fwiw.

[Actuary 3]

if you know pf will get 4 callers behind you, then I like the limpNormally, I'd say a fold, vs an Unknown UTG Raiser and so many players left to act.If he opened from MP3, we have a discussion, Raise/Fold.flop and turn look good.This seems like a good spot for a Raise-Fold to a 3 bet, river line.However, he's never going to fold his overapair, no matter how much we hope he puts us on 77 hereAnd when it's AK, he proably won't call enough... I'm certain MP won't fold a beter hand for 2 bets, and he folds 89 here either way.I may be rusty.

[Roo6339 0]

In a loose game SSHE says play any pocket pair against a raise. This hand only just makes the loose standards though so I think it'd be close.So are donkbets on the river generally (I'm talking very generally) a sign of strength?Actuary, if I were to raise the river and get re-raised I'm not sure I'd be able to lay it down for one extra BB.

[Zach6668 513]

Actuary, if I were to raise the river and get re-raised I'm not sure I'd be able to lay it down for one extra BB.

Then you don't raise the river.***********They aren't necessarily a sign of strength, but they can be.Lots of times they are retarded bluffs with missed draws. If you raise, they're not calling.If he's strong, he's either calling or reraising.There are very few hands he'd donk with here, AND call a raise, that we beat, no?7x is the only thing, really.

[Roo6339 0]

Then you don't raise the river.

Yeah, that's why I tend not to raise the river without a monster.Just to make sure I got it straight with the river donkbets, calling is generally better because if he's trying a dumb bluff attempt he'll fold to a raise anyway, but if he has us beat we could get 3-bet and as I said, I wouldn't be able to lay that down. So it'd cost 3 BBs to see his cards instead of 1.Just because it was retarded, I may as well say that villain had (in white) 97s. The play at these stakes never cease to amaze me.

[Zach6668 513]

Yeah. That's not suprising.The way a guy like Coran Moran looks at it:You were planning on betting the river, and getting one bet in.Now you've got your opportunity to get that bet, with exactly 0 risk of being check raised, and being forced to put in 2 bets while behind.That's not to say that you can't raise marginal hands on the river vs some opponents though.

[Mattnxtc 0]

With the way the utg played this hand I would think your ahead of him the majority of the time. To me its ax a ton of the time really hoping you were just on a draw.

[KowboyKoop 0]

At these limits, I three-bet preflop....otherwise, I think it was played well.

[Actuary 3]

At these limits, I three-bet preflop

I'd say just the opposite.At higher limits I'd be more likely to 3-bet

[Zach6668 513]

Agree with Actuary.

[NYIsles 0]

Guys, just a thought... not meaning to overstep my bounds (it's been a hell of a long time since I've posted on here, and am just getting back into the swing of things) - but when it comes to disagreements on strategy, I think it would be helpful to post your rationale for why you'd approach a situation differently, as opposed to simply stating what you'd do.Regarding 88 in early position vs. an UTG raiser, Kowboy said he'd three bet at these limits, whereas Actuary and Zach said they'd be more inclined to do so at higher limits - but nobody discussed their rationale.Personally, I'd be more inclined to three-bet in EP at higher limits as well; the reasons being two-fold: (1) with lower limits tending to be looser, you're more likely to get callers behind regardless of the up front raises, so (i) you're less likely to successfully isolate and (ii) if you were to choose to call rather than fold, you'll likely get better odds to draw to a set; and (2) re-raising from EP at higher limits (where people are generally thinking more) gives you the opportunity to win the hand two ways: (i) you can hit your hand or win vs. AK, etc. if the board comes up rags, and (ii) you'll have more of an opportunity to get a good pocket pair to fold to a scary board (in representing either a strong ace or a premium pocket pair).fwiw...

[Actuary 3]

Guys, just a thought... not meaning to overstep my bounds

there are no boundsIt's no Steve7studs thread,

Personally, I'd be more inclined to three-bet in EP at higher limits as well; the reasons being two-fold: (1) with lower limits tending to be looser, you're more likely to get callers behind regardless of the up front raises, so (i) you're less likely to successfully isolate and (ii) if you were to choose to call rather than fold, you'll likely get better odds to draw to a set; and (2) re-raising from EP at higher limits (where people are generally thinking more) gives you the opportunity to win the hand two ways: (i) you can hit your hand or win vs. AK, etc. if the board comes up rags, and (ii) you'll have more of an opportunity to get a good pocket pair to fold to a scary board (in representing either a strong ace or a premium pocket pair).fwiw...

yep.well said.And, higher stakes games are more aggressive, his range is wider. (I think...although this is UTG, which means our 3-bet will show even more strength)And the Rake is a lower percent of the blinds, so getting in and winning small pots is more acceptableI tend to put lower limit players on beter hands when they raise

[NYIsles 0]

And the Rake is a lower percent of the blinds, so getting in and winning small pots is more acceptable

That's a great point...

[Zach6668 513]

Ya, basically for all the reasons you and Act have said.

[Moneyball16 0]

On pokertracker is there a way to see how often players at a certain level will open the pot for a raise in a certain spot? It would be useful to know what the average opening percentage players at 3/6 have when they are UTG.

[Zach6668 513]

Hmmm... I dunno...

[Actuary 3]

nah, just one player at a timelike 98% sure

[Frez 0]

On pokertracker is there a way to see how often players at a certain level will open the pot for a raise in a certain spot? It would be useful to know what the average opening percentage players at 3/6 have when they are UTG.

I just looked, and you can see RFI player by player of course, but I can't find an aggregate. Have you asked on the PT forums? I bet someone smart with database management could pull the data from the Access file.