DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 I usually agree w/ u dd but this is horrible....maybe I'm misunderstanding something but are you saying you'd never fold KK pre with like 180 bb's behind?More or less, for a variety of reasons. The typical scenario that people present is this.. 1/2 NLHero raises to 9, all fold to villain who raises to 30, Hero raises to 90, Villain pushes for 360, Hero folds..Villain shows AA and I am God of all that is poker. I think that's bad. I am almost never folding KK in this scenario. And it's usually never presented in a way such that I'd advocate folding. Now, if the situation were.. 2/5 NL Hero raises to 22, sleepy old man in the corner raises to 39, hero 3-bets to 125, sleepy old man makes it 250, hero raises to 600(at which point we should probably be pushing or, assuming we put them on AA, calling and hoping to flop a K), sleepy old man pushes for 7k...then, yes.. I can see a reason for folding.. The reasons I'd virtually never fold KK are as follows, in no real order..1) This is why we have a bankroll. 1 of 22**times we have KK does our villain(s) have AA. When it happens, it's overhead and it sucks, but we deal.1a) ~1 of 5 times we run into AA with our KK, we'll flop a set anyway. 2) People often play QQ and JJ with the same speed. 3) Even if I am called(or call) and I run KK into AA, it's good for table image purposes. I will *not* be run over. 4) I have seen sooooooooooooooo many people in my time play AK like it is AA. I've folded KK two times in my life. Once I was shown AA, the other, AK. Both were 2/5 NL games with 200+ BB stacks. Take HSP for example, in one episode alone, two seasons ago, Barry G and John Juanda both shoved 100k+ into ~10k pots preflop, with AK. 5) I'm not dispensing this advice to people who are playing respectable tables. I am dispensing this advice to people who play 10/25/50/100NL online, and 1/2 and 2/5 NL(capped buy in) live. It is RARELY, very rarely, correct to fold KK preflop at these levels. 6) By the time all the raising happens, I'm usually getting a pretty decent price.7) Maybe, just maybe..he has KK, as well? It's a remote, possibility, but, it is one..So.. on these forums, typically, no..I can not ever find a reason to advocate folding KK preflop.**edit:I believe this is right, but, it's off the top of my head, and I cannot fully confirm right now..also, Jagerbombs hurt..I'll check back in the morning to verify/correct.. Link to post Share on other sites
mused01 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 I did not read your last post. I retract my statement completely Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 .. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 I did not read your last post. I retract my statement completelyFair enough. But, you were right..my snobby attitude is very laughable. I don't take myself that seriously..neither should you. Link to post Share on other sites
PrtyPSux 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 I guess I wouldnt fold KK in a 1/2 game...but in a 5/10 game and up if I have more than 100 bbs I might fold unless I've been 4 betting a lot pre. In a situation where someone raises another guy calls I reraise a guy behind me reraises and the original raiser goes all in, I'd instafold every time....and live I can fold KK pre way easier because I usually play deep and people make it more obv when they have AA. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 I guess I wouldnt fold KK in a 1/2 game...but in a 5/10 game and up if I have more than 100 bbs I might fold unless I've been 4 betting a lot pre.This is a pretty significant distinction to make, and part of the reason why I would so rarely fold KK preflop at my limits(usually no higher than 2/5). My style (and I believe your's to some extent, though your's is likely less of a preflop game), is to raise and reraise, regularly 3-bet moderate hands preflop (JJ/TT?/AQs?/High suited connectors). As such, I'm getting played back at a lot with less than AA a great deal of the time. Realistically, my mantra of "NEVER FOLD KK PREFLOP" came from the strat forums here, where everyone and their brother posted a thinly veiled not-so-bad-beat post about, "Should I have folded KK here for the 23 BBs I had on the table? He did end up showing AA, after all.." There are no absolutes, in this game. Link to post Share on other sites
DanielNegreanu 141 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 obviously there's feel online, its just not nearly as big and completely different than live. Click tells, betting patterns etc sure, but actually sitting there infront of someone is an unreal edge. The reason a lot of live pros can't transition well is because for years they have taught themselves to focus on things other than their cards, a lot of which are physical tendencies that your opponent has, a lot of it is profiling too...it sounds kinda racist but I'll play most asians, women, black dudes, mexicans or an old men all differently (until their play proves otherwise), this is stuff you just cant know online and its HUGE, betting patterns in live poker are big too but not AS big because live players often don't know exactly how much is in the pot, a 575 bet often means the same as 550 bet where as online a 255 bet might mean a bluff when a 250 bet might mean he has it etc...therefor, these live players go online and now they have to play their hands, they don't know who they're playing and one of their main sources of getting information is taken away, even though they understand some betting patterns this has never been their main focus so now their main source of info is something that they're not particularly great at figuring out. I'm sure you can see how hard this transition could be after years of playing live, I'm sure you can also admit that online poker is waaaay more of a mechanical game than live so for a live player this is like playing a video game...A good example of a hand that you'd play online one way but might be able to play better live is something like AQ... guy raises to 150 pre and you call in position, the flop is AT9r he bets 300 and you know he can have any 2 really, you have two real ways to play this online against the usual player, you can raise to 800 or 750 and check behind any turn when he calls (even a Q or A) or you can just smooth call, in the first senario you are making a limit holdem type play and you HAVE to call any river bet almost, obv you can fold a small % of the time where the two worst cards peel but for the most part you'll call because of that famous online phrase "The way I played the hand, I have to call" so this is a + EV play in the long run online, but you'll be making a TON of bad calls when he hits a draw or has a set or something. Now live often you'll make the same play but know when the river helped the guy and fold, or know the guy is drawing and bet the turn knowing he wont c/r you, you can play your hand a million different ways based on your opponent. In the second play, online if you just call you HAVE to call the turn if he 2 barrels, and a lot of time you're going to have to make a big decision on the riv if he 3 barrels and either make a marginal call or a marginal fold with no real info other than wether or not the guy can 3 barrel bluff. Live , again you can sometimes fold/raise/or call the turn and riv bets with more certainty. About online players making the transition relatively easy, I don't know if thats 100% true, the reason that a winning 10/20 player would be able to beat a 10/20 or 25/50 live game is because the play is just sooo much worse live in general, there is no question about that. This is not to say that live pros are worse than online pros, its just clear to me that most of the guys sitting in my 10/20 live games arent pros, there are way more rich 40 year olds that feel like "gambling". In general though, I think a lot of big online "names" are TERRIBLE live, maybe not as bad as the amateurs but not nearly as good as they are online, I see this more in tourneys than cash games because I play more online players in tournaments but this is pretty much the same thing if we're talking about transitions. Like I said earlier, a lot of online players have bloated egos, they think they have everything figured out and a lot of them are oblivious to physical tells to the point where I've seen some guys laugh when you talk about it. Its not a case of wether or not online players are better than live players imo, I do think that a lot of the top online players are a little over hyped because they're usually only great at one game (like me except I dont consider myself a top player). Waco put it best one time when I was talking to him, he meant this about tourney players but it applies to cash players just as well imo, he said something like "the top 100 online players are definately better than the top 100 live players, but the top 5 or 10 live players are WAY better than the top 10 online players" I don't know how much sense this makes to you but it just means speaking in tourney terms that Ivey, Daniel, JC Tran are way better than Lil holdem and Imperium or whoever else is 3rd, but whoever is ranked 100th on pocket fives is probably way better than someone like miami john or whatever other multi bracelet winner that you'd rank in the top 100.... I guess I'm just ranting now so I'll stop but thats pretty much my main opinion on the neverending online vs live debate. This JC kid is pretty smart after all! I agree with you completely. In fact, specifically for deep tournament poker I think a lot of even the best online cash players make habitual mistakes that cost them their stack in tournaments. Even good friends like Patrick Antonius. I think Patrick gets himself into uneccessary situations far too often in tournaments, while a guy like Scotty Nguyen, who'd like get destroyed online, would never make those same types of mistakes in a live tournament. Most players laugh and scoff at a guy like Hellmuth, but the truth is, he knows way more about how to survive in a tournament than someone like Sbrugby for example. Link to post Share on other sites
QED 4 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 This JC kid is pretty smart after all! I agree with you completely. In fact, specifically for deep tournament poker I think a lot of even the best online cash players make habitual mistakes that cost them their stack in tournaments. Even good friends like Patrick Antonius. I think Patrick gets himself into uneccessary situations far too often in tournaments, while a guy like Scotty Nguyen, who'd like get destroyed online, would never make those same types of mistakes in a live tournament. Most players laugh and scoff at a guy like Hellmuth, but the truth is, he knows way more about how to survive in a tournament than someone like Sbrugby for example."You call, gonna be all over baby!" just wouldn't have the same affect in a chat box. Link to post Share on other sites
fees 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 DN its later han a mother ****** and ur still posting.. deeeeegennnnnnnnn? lol.. fwiw Im gonna keep posting in this thread while it stays interesting and I'm obv 2p2. LOL donkaments at BT making mistakes in tournies.. obviously? PA is alot stronger because he plays them more often, but aba is mainly cash, he will think about everything in terms of equity, and I doubt hes mastered the deeper levels of MTT strategy. But like.. LDO amirite? Anyway.. do you have any interest in playing Brain or Tom? I cant imagine you aren't curious.. do you have something with stars that says you can only play stars? If thats the case consider what I said in my earlier post about getting the sites to agree to interaccount transfers (this would be VERY good for the game). Link to post Share on other sites
President 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Daniel, play against another fin LarsLuzak at FullTiltPoker. He waits often alone at NLHE HU tables.And if you want to play PL Omaha, try play against fin Ziigmund Link to post Share on other sites
RhinestoneCowboy 2 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Are you 4 guys braindead? He has to play at Stars. If your boyzzzzzzzz want to play him, get them to play on stars. I thought the DN fanboys were bad... Link to post Share on other sites
President 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 He has to play at Stars. If your boyzzzzzzzz want to play him, get them to play on stars.I can ask...But I'll wait for Daniel first. I like to watch when Daniel Negreanu is playing. And I think he is one of the best tournament player in the world. But that he can beat best online cashgame players, I dont think. I can be wrong though... Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Based on the past couple of pages, I'll take the bottom 100 FCPers against the bottom 100 2+2ers any day. Link to post Share on other sites
RhinestoneCowboy 2 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 I can ask...But I'll wait for Daniel first. I like to watch when Daniel Negreanu is playing. And I think he is one of the best tournament player in the world. But that he can beat best online cashgame players, I dont think. I can be wrong though...I don't know whether or not he can beat them either, and I'm guessing it will take months before anyone has any real idea of how he compares to the top online players. My point is that asking him to get Pokerstars to allow transfers with Full Tilt is kinda silly. Link to post Share on other sites
RhinestoneCowboy 2 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Based on the past couple of pages, I'll take the bottom 100 FCPers against the bottom 100 2+2ers any day.Aww shucks, I'm gonna blush. Link to post Share on other sites
Dratj 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 In a NLHE cash game where we are ~200 BB's deep, yup..always and forever.Name one time that I've been wrong, when I've come across as a 'some-smartass know-it-all'. Oh, okay.. The difference between me and most of the posters here is that I don't open my mouth(type a reply, make a new topic), unless I know what the fuck I'm talking about. At no point, in this thread, did I say anything wrong, refutable or otherwise misleading.It's not that you say things that are untrue, it's just that you always come across as a prick when you do. It appears that you always say it in a sarcastic, I'm a prick and superior to you type of tone. Link to post Share on other sites
fees 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Based on the past couple of pages, I'll take the bottom 100 FCPers against the bottom 100 2+2ers any day.LOL what does this mean? I assume you're just a terrible poster. How about our average HSNL/MSNLers vrs ur best? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 LOL what does this mean? I assume you're just a terrible poster. How about our average HSNL/MSNLers vrs ur best?Assumptions are bad.Cobalt is a legend. Link to post Share on other sites
silkyjonson 1 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 This JC kid is pretty smart after all! I agree with you completely. In fact, specifically for deep tournament poker I think a lot of even the best online cash players make habitual mistakes that cost them their stack in tournaments. Even good friends like Patrick Antonius. I think Patrick gets himself into uneccessary situations far too often in tournaments, while a guy like Scotty Nguyen, who'd like get destroyed online, would never make those same types of mistakes in a live tournament. Most players laugh and scoff at a guy like Hellmuth, but the truth is, he knows way more about how to survive in a tournament than someone like Sbrugby for example.I think the better comparison is between great online tournament players and great live tournament players. I think that the online players are very much advanced in tournament theory and ability ex. (Waco, JC and a ton of other young players with good results) as most of the very top live tourney players have been around for a while and time will tell if these online tourney guru's can transition to the levels of a JC Tran, DN, Ivey, Hellmuth etc. I don't think comparing Sbrugby is fair because his focus is cash games with little experience or time analyzing tournaments. Live cash game players that play live tournaments I'm sure would make some of the same mistakes that he would thus nulifying the online vs. live debate. (obviously though the live cash players have the edge of physical cues and other live skills that carry over from cash to tourneys) Link to post Share on other sites
PMJackson21 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 obviously there's feel online...This was a _very_ good post. Obv though, what would one expect from the greatest Mexican poker player in the world? Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Aww shucks, I'm gonna blush.I think some of our bottom 100 are actually probably quite good, whereas, with 2+2's volume, their bottom 100 obviously represent the dregs of the poker world.LOL what does this mean? I assume you're just a terrible poster. How about our average HSNL/MSNLers vrs ur best?Just because you missed my point doesn't mean I made a bad one. Link to post Share on other sites
AAsnake88 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Based on the past couple of pages, I'll take the bottom 100 FCPers against the bottom 100 2+2ers any day. LOL what does this mean? I assume you're just a terrible poster. How about our average HSNL/MSNLers vrs ur best?It took far too long for this thread to come to HU4ROLLZ. Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 It took far too long for this thread to come to HU4ROLLZ.The funny part is that his response further validates my point. Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 It took far too long for this thread to come to HU4ROLLZ.I think the new Heads Up for Rollz is I challenge you to play 8 heads up games at once. Link to post Share on other sites
Admo 0 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Absolutely no chance. If this guy is supposed to be better than me than I must be the biggest idiot in the world. I can't imagine how it's even remotely possible that I could lose to him long term unless he completely changed his tactics. Either y'all truly underestimate me in a big way or or overestimate the skill level of the online player.Daniel,If you're interested I'll crossbook you v ADZ.Will post.Adam Link to post Share on other sites
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