Overpair On Flop, 5 10 Nl

[Roberts2003 0]

4 handed, 5 10 NL. I have absolutely no read on the opponent. This hand also raises more hypothetical questions on game play such as what is the best line in any given spot given all the variables.Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 4 Players -SB: $990.00BB: $1,015.00Hero (UTG): $1,140.00BTN: $219.00Preflop: Hero is dealt J:spade: J:heart: (4 Players)Hero raises to $35.00, BTN folds, SB raises to $125.00, BB folds, Hero calls $90.00Flop:($260) 2:diamond: T:spade: 8:heart: (2 Players)SB bets $222.00, Hero..........I personally feel this one of the biggest gray areas in NL Hold Em. You hope for a low flop, you get it, yet there are still overpairs that beat you. A call on the flop lets AK AQ catch up or double barrel you, a raise pretty much commits you, but a fold is almost too weak. What are people's opinions on these types of spots?

[sabes99 0]

in this particular spot, if you think about it and reason it out, just calling is the best play by far...at most, he has 6 outs, but four-handed you would imagine he has a bigger re-raise range than just big pairs, A-K, and A-Q, so it's possible for him to have A-J, A-10, 7-7, and the like...it's a typical WA/WB situation usually, which is a perfect spot to just call...if a bad card comes off on the turn then you either cost yourself some money when he hit a card to beat you, or saved yourself that money if we were beat already and now the card scares us off...if a good card comes off then maybe he bluffs it again, an opportunity that raising the flop would have taken away, and at that point if you are going to the turn you are probably not getting away from itthis particular situation, i will note, could possibly have been remedied by re-raising before the flop, which is something to remember when asking about facing tough decisions like this...when pondering what you should have done in a tough spot after you've made a decision, always consider how you could have avoided the situation entirely

[pokerinc 0]

in this particular spot, if you think about it and reason it out, just calling is the best play by far...at most, he has 6 outs, but four-handed you would imagine he has a bigger re-raise range than just big pairs, A-K, and A-Q, so it's possible for him to have A-J, A-10, 7-7, and the like...it's a typical WA/WB situation usually, which is a perfect spot to just call...if a bad card comes off on the turn then you either cost yourself some money when he hit a card to beat you, or saved yourself that money if we were beat already and now the card scares us off...if a good card comes off then maybe he bluffs it again, an opportunity that raising the flop would have taken away, and at that point if you are going to the turn you are probably not getting away from itthis particular situation, i will note, could possibly have been remedied by re-raising before the flop, which is something to remember when asking about facing tough decisions like this...when pondering what you should have done in a tough spot after you've made a decision, always consider how you could have avoided the situation entirely

Good stuff.I agree that 4 handed his range for 3 betting pre has got to be a lot bigger. Specific to your situation I call the flop and see what the turn brings. I know I 3 bet out of the blinds w/ a pretty huge range. I think a call is good here.I like making it 370 pre flop here. W/ your pre flop action and the flop call you'd invest the same in the hand, but I think the pre flop 4 bet defines the action a little better.

[tskillz187 0]

Definite gray spot, sometime I just call and hope for the double barrel, other times I might minraise/small raise and hope someone gets WAY out of line with AK/AQ, bascially I'm not folding without info that he is very tight and I'm trying to get all of my chips in. The problem I have with just calling is a LOT of times they are in c/f mode once called with two overs and you don't know if the Q or K hurts you. I don't like just calling and then stacking off to 2 outs on the turn when they do catch up.

[Royal_Tour 0]

This is the type of situation when you wished you were playing LHE. I think in these spots we have to lose the minimum amount if we're behind, but that also includes winning less. I guess.usually in a spot like this, I like to hope i'm ahead and just call. However, some villains are capable of shoveling the turn when called because they take a call as weakness.some like Tskillz said, will c/f when called if they hold Ace highalso, what type of raise do we make that doesnt commit us? a min raise? Bottom line, I don't think that a call here is horrible. We arent going to call off all our chips, we call the flop and put the decision back on villain on the turn.I also think if villain is willing to fire out again on the turn, its time to let our hand go

[Royal_Tour 0]

I like making it 370 pre flop here. W/ your pre flop action and the flop call you'd invest the same in the hand, but I think the pre flop 4 bet defines the action a little better.

Ugh, i find that kinda gross. a re-raise pf might tell us a little more in depth of the strength of our opponents hand. however at a game like 5-10NL, many might disguise the strength of aces or kings by just calling our re-raise and trying to appear weaker than AA/KK

[Acid_Knight 2]

There are a lot of interesting things going on with this hand.First of all, in position in a 4 handed 5/10 game, I think you need to be 4-betting this preflop a majority of the time. If you have no read on your opponent and he pushes, you can probably fold safely. If you have other reads and he pushes, act accordingly.So, ok, we didn't repop it preflop, which is fine too becuase it disguises our hand. On the flop, I think we really only have 2 options. We can raise or we can call.Calling is good becuase it keeps out investment to a minimum if we're beaten and he likely has 6 outs at most if he's behind anyway, so he will only draw out on us like 1 in 7 times (on the next card) when we do this. The board is also dry and it might freeze him from firing that 2nd barrel wtih AK or whatever since we could easily have a set here. That works in our favor becuase if the board was more drawy and we flat called, he's likely to assign us a draw more often and fire the 2nd barrel on a blank turn.Raising is also a good option. To everyone saying that if we raise, we are committed, why are we committed? Who cares if we put in half of our stack? If we raise to $550 to $600 (my choice if I'm raising) then we put a lot of pressure on him. He will likely assume that he doesn't have FE since so many of our chips have gone in, but are we gonna call if he pushes? If we have no read, the answer is No. If he's pushing then he's almost certainly got us beaten and we wouldn't have odds to outdraw him even with half of our stack in the pot. If he's gonna push AK, AQ or AT here, then good for him becuase we'll get his money later. I just think that it will be too difficult for him to push anything that we beat after we make what appears to be a pot committing raise on the flop.If this was a full ring game or even 6 max, I'd lead towards calling or folding depending on the villain, but I'd probably call most of the time and fold to the 2nd barrel on the turn if he fires one. In a 4 handed game, you really should 4 bet preflop and the flop is up to you. If you wanna get it all in here, that's fine too, but I think that the raise/fold and flat call are the best choices.

[tskillz187 0]

Raising is also a good option. To everyone saying that if we raise, we are committed, why are we committed? Who cares if we put in half of our stack? If we raise to $550 to $600 (my choice if I'm raising) then we put a lot of pressure on him. He will likely assume that he doesn't have FE since so many of our chips have gone in, but are we gonna call if he pushes? If we have no read, the answer is No. If he's pushing then he's almost certainly got us beaten and we wouldn't have odds to outdraw him even with half of our stack in the pot. If he's gonna push AK, AQ or AT here, then good for him becuase we'll get his money later. I just think that it will be too difficult for him to push anything that we beat after we make what appears to be a pot committing raise on the flop.

I would also raise to $600 if I chose to raise. If we do this, he's shoving $300 more at us. Unless my math is all messed up the pot will be $1680 and we'll have to call $300 more. That's like 5.5:1 on our money. If he only has sets or overpairs we are around an 8.5:1 dog. I don't know I just cant pass on such a huge pot here once I raise to $600, I can't accept "if he's going to do this with AK/AQ/A10 we'll get his money later." If we add those hands in it's a clear call and we missed out on it in a gigantic pot getting great odds.

[mtdesmoines 2]

4 handed, 5 10 NL. I have absolutely no read on the opponent. This hand also raises more hypothetical questions on game play such as what is the best line in any given spot given all the variables.Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 4 Players -SB: $990.00BB: $1,015.00Hero (UTG): $1,140.00BTN: $219.00Preflop: Hero is dealt J:spade: J:heart: (4 Players)Hero raises to $35.00, BTN folds, SB raises to $125.00, BB folds, Hero calls $90.00Flop:($260) 2:diamond: T:spade: 8:heart: (2 Players)SB bets $222.00, Hero..........I personally feel this one of the biggest gray areas in NL Hold Em. You hope for a low flop, you get it, yet there are still overpairs that beat you. A call on the flop lets AK AQ catch up or double barrel you, a raise pretty much commits you, but a fold is almost too weak. What are people's opinions on these types of spots?

We don't have sufficient information to act wisely here with "absolutely no read on the opponent," so I think we're down to guessing. What does the SBs bet mean? Is he betting for value or CBetting protecting an underpair?I guess if we felt good about being ahead PF with JJ -- and we have a really, really good chance of having been ahead PF -- then this is either a flop shove or a flop call / turn shove, provided we see a safe turn. Key question is, did we feel we were ahead with JJ PF? Lots of hands do $125 PF in this game, I assume. I play $1/$2/ and $2/$5 live ... a little $5/$10, so I'm not accustomed to betting patterns in $5/$10 online. But I know that one of the leaks in my game is not defending strong when I'm ahead. I'd just HATE seeing an over turn, knowing we gave it away cheap. So I guess that since we assume the things we do, and we've dodged overs on the flop, we should TID now.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I would also raise to $600 if I chose to raise. If we do this, he's shoving $300 more at us. Unless my math is all messed up the pot will be $1680 and we'll have to call $300 more. That's like 5.5:1 on our money. If he only has sets or overpairs we are around an 8.5:1 dog. I don't know I just cant pass on such a huge pot here once I raise to $600, I can't accept "if he's going to do this with AK/AQ/A10 we'll get his money later." If we add those hands in it's a clear call and we missed out on it in a gigantic pot getting great odds.

You're right, for some reason I read the OP, rounded the Hero's stack to 1200 and thought the other guy had a similar amount meaning that it'd be another $600ish to call, which would be a clear fold.With the stacks as they are, I guess it is bad to raise then fold to the push.Maybe calling is best, but with how aggressive these games are, regularly stacking off here isn't terrible.This would all be easier if you just reraised preflop. I'd think that you have to 4-bet with lighter than JJ, especially in position, so I think that you should be 4-betting here like at least 75% of the time in a game like this. The hand mostly plays itself if you 4 bet him preflop.

[ActionFalko 0]

I fold.The Pot is at $260. He bets $222, making the Pot 482. If I call, the Pot is at $700, with a remaining effective stack of $668. Since I dont think its a good idea to put all the chips in the middle with JJ (like Hellmuth said:"It's just Jacks..."), I fold. Because any reasonable bet on the turn or the river, will put us All-In. And since our line was to fold to any further betting, I would save some chips right now. Hey, it's just Jacks...

[Acid_Knight 2]

I fold.The Pot is at $260. He bets $222, making the Pot 482. If I call, the Pot is at $700, with a remaining effective stack of $668. Since I dont think its a good idea to put all the chips in the middle with JJ (like Hellmuth said:"It's just Jacks..."), I fold. Because any reasonable bet on the turn or the river, will put us All-In. And since our line was to fold to any further betting, I would save some chips right now. Hey, it's just Jacks...

This isn't a tournament and Hellmuth sucks at cash games.

[ActionFalko 0]

but nevertheless, I think I argued well, why I would fold anyway, didn't I... (because of the size of the pot on the flop, any future betting will put us All-In and I don't see us ahead, if this would happen. Thats why I fold right away.)

[Acid_Knight 2]

but nevertheless, I think I argued well, why I would fold anyway, didn't I... (because of the size of the pot on the flop, any future betting will put us All-In and I don't see us ahead, if this would happen. Thats why I fold right away.)

This is 4-handed 5/10 NL and while I'm not saying that the Hero has to go broke everytime in this situation with JJ, he needs to be willing to felt with it against many opponents. If he's gonna fold this flop, then he shouldn't have called with the hand preflop. Unless he has a strong read on the villain, the only consideration should be between calling and raising here. I think most of the problem is taht we know nothing about the villain.

[ActionFalko 0]

"If he's gonna fold this flop, then he shouldn't have called with the hand preflop"Yepp. Agreed. But as played, its a fold to me. As I mentioned if we call, one more bet and we are All-In, and the only hand we beat then, is a overplayed AK, AQ, which is ok, becuase then we will get his money sooner or later...

[Roberts2003 0]

i think not enough people around here adjust their thoughts to SH NL cash games. full ring and SH are MUCHHHH different.

[Acid_Knight 2]

"If he's gonna fold this flop, then he shouldn't have called with the hand preflop"Yepp. Agreed.

Yeah, except folding preflop in a 4 handed game with JJ to a standard 3 bet is just, well, awful, so you'd never do it. Call or raise the flop, folding is too weak. The more I keep thinking about it, stacking off here is fine. He might pay you with a 99 type hand.

[Naismith 0]

i think not enough people around here adjust their thoughts to SH NL cash games. full ring and SH are MUCHHHH different.

LOL. I missed your posts on here. Hopefully we can get another three pages of you looking for advice where you really just want to tell everyone that you know what you're doing and if anyone disagrees with you, they don't understand the game you're playing in. ;)Just busting your balls, bro. I double the guy up here if he's ahead, BTW.EDIT: I officially retired from poker, so keep that in mind when reading any bit of poker advice I ever offer.

[tskillz187 0]

i think not enough people around here adjust their thoughts to SH NL cash games. full ring and SH are MUCHHHH different.

Agree.Resteals are VERY prevalent at these stakes and so far the only action we've seen from villain is reraise from a resteal position and c-bet. His range is huge. I still raise though, but I'm never folding to a shove.

[Royal_Tour 0]

i think not enough people around here adjust their thoughts to SH NL cash games. full ring and SH are MUCHHHH different.

so with out the re-raise preflop, let me guess. a flop push is the best play in your mind?i only say this cuz you've made several other posts about pushing when you have zero reads and pray you arent walking into a hand. (which is short term luck, and ship holla balla type plays. which explains some of them being broke.)

[mtdesmoines 2]

Agree.Resteals are VERY prevalent at these stakes and so far the only action we've seen from villain is reraise from a resteal position and c-bet. His range is huge. I still raise though, but I'm never folding to a shove.

Right, but there's only a couple hands we care about here. The three sets on the flop, and the four over hands. That's only seven hands we care about. I risk it. As someone else said, we didn't play JJ to fold this flop.

[Roberts2003 0]

so with out the re-raise preflop, let me guess. a flop push is the best play in your mind?i only say this cuz you've made several other posts about pushing when you have zero reads and pray you arent walking into a hand. (which is short term luck, and ship holla balla type plays. which explains some of them being broke.)

no, not necessarily. The notion of folding JJ preflop 4 handed to a 3 bet without a read that the opponent is a nit is absurd and wrong in my mind, and is what made me say that. I agree that some of my past posts were a little out there, but I still think I am correct in saying that SH aggression is a concept that seems hard to grasp by some who probably play 9 handed.

[Royal_Tour 0]

no, not necessarily. The notion of folding JJ preflop 4 handed to a 3 bet without a read that the opponent is a nit is absurd and wrong in my mind, and is what made me say that. I agree that some of my past posts were a little out there, but I still think I am correct in saying that SH aggression is a concept that seems hard to grasp by some who probably play 9 handed.

I dont think anyone ever said fold JJ 4 handed to a 3 bet preflop.we're wondering why you say some people cant grasp SH aggression? My guess is because you think a push on the flop when villain bets the pot is a smart/winning move

[Acid_Knight 2]

I dont think anyone ever said fold JJ 4 handed to a 3 bet preflop.we're wondering why you say some people cant grasp SH aggression? My guess is because you think a push on the flop when villain bets the pot is a smart/winning move

I said that if he's considering folding it to a single bet on the flop (i know this isn't the case) then he shouldn't have called with it preflop (which I assert is just unreasonable).ActionFalko said he still thinks a fold on the flop is the best play. I think that's super weak tight.

[mtdesmoines 2]

I said that if he's considering folding it to a single bet on the flop (i know this isn't the case) then he shouldn't have called with it preflop (which I assert is just unreasonable). ActionFalko said he still thinks a fold on the flop is the best play. I think that's super weak tight.

Right. Hey, AK, you talk to Naismith a lot, right? Ran across a post with him mentioning that he "retired" from poker. I was going to ask him about it, but now I lost the thread. What's up with that?If you want to alert him that I asked the question and point him here, that's fine, too. Just curious.