Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I don't play a whole lot of No Limit anymore. This game was an exception, however. I deal in the game 3 to 4 times weekly, and decided I would be a fool if I didn't at least sit for a few hours a week. The game is a 2-100 Spread Limit game, changing things quite a bit. I have about 250 in front of me.First, reads:This is a dream table. The player to my left, Sami, is a bad LAG. Actually, he's probably closer to a maniac than a LAG, but whatever. He runs the games over on some occasions and wins a grand because nobody wants to gamble with him. The player 2 to my right is also a LAG. I personally believe he plays better than Sami, but when he's been running semi-hot, he'll start hammering the shit out of every pot. The rest of the players are waaaay too loose preflop. The standard 12-15 dollar preflop raise is getting called 3-5 times on average, and Ace/Rag has been shown down after heavy pressure from more than one seat. I intentionally chose the seat to Sami's right. My plan coming in was to limp/re-raise liberally. I'll get the loose call's from Sami's raises, and kill them when I hammer back. Nobody isolates Sami with a wide enough range to give me any trouble at all.Though this is my first time playing this game with these players, both Sami and Brett have a lot of respect for my game. I talk a lot about poker while dealing, and I've fucked them each up pretty good playing LHE over the last few months. I have a solid, respectful relationship with both of them. The table has definitely noticed I'm playing pretty tight, and that Brett and Sami are giving me at least SOME respect, which means I'm getting even more from the rest of the table.Brett has me covered.Sami has 195 when the hand starts.I'm UTG w/TT.I limp. Sami announces a blind raise to 15 (we believe him), he is called in 4 spots, LAG #2/Brett makes it 45 after announcing he's only seen one card.I raise the max to 145. Do we have a problem with my line here? I had to take so many weird routes to get the money in, usually with non-awesome holdings (like TT, etc) that I thought I'd check up here. The pots were usually so big that it was very important to shut out as many players as possible, regardless of cost, if you thought you weren't dominated very often.Wang

Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, this is exactly fitting into your plan of limp/reraising so you should do it. I'm not really in favor of that plan because it emphasizes preflop poker way too much IMO. Usually these lag/maniac players won't slow down on flops so you can get your money in better than employing the limp/reraise with marginally solid hands.So, if you want to employ your strat I would, If i was playing how I'd play the hand I would probably muck here or I would have raised PF and things would have occurred differently because the wild 2 wouldnt have been the ones initiating the betting.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I mean, this is exactly fitting into your plan of limp/reraising so you should do it. I'm not really in favor of that plan because it emphasizes preflop poker way too much IMO. Usually these lag/maniac players won't slow down on flops so you can get your money in better than employing the limp/reraise with marginally solid hands.So, if you want to employ your strat I would, If i was playing how I'd play the hand I would probably muck here or I would have raised PF and things would have occurred differently because the wild 2 wouldnt have been the ones initiating the betting.
Do you mind if I ask why you don't particularly like the idea of my limp/reraise strategy, here? I understand the idea of being able to exploit players postflop, but do you think I'm sacrificing some equity here against two animals, and the 4ish people who are cold-calling light? I've been thinking about optimum strategy for this game a lot, and I guess this topic was meant to open discussion for that, eventually.So, given the important conditions (Maniac and TurboLag, general respect for my play from the entire table, everyone is too loose, 1/2 game with 150ish in most stacks and a 200 dollar max bet), what's the best way to go about exploiting this game?Wang
Link to post
Share on other sites
So, given the important conditions (Maniac and TurboLag, general respect for my play from the entire table, everyone is too loose, 1/2 game with 150ish in most stacks and a 200 dollar max bet), what's the best way to go about exploiting this game?Wang
I don't have any experience in a game like the one you are describing. The actual limits and betting, I have played with incredibly drunk maniacs who think they are the shit though.My strategy greatly changes depending on where I am sitting with regards to the maniacs. If I'm in seat 3 and they are across the table in seat 8 I really don't change my game much and I call him PF lighter and try to play big pots with him postflop when I have top pair or better.If I was sitting directly to the right of aggro maniac my standard line would be to raise pf with all hands I wanted to play but to a smaller amount that the maniac usually raises to pf, and see if he is willing to reraise me pf all the time even if the reraise is only slightly bigger than his normal opener. Usually they just aren't willing to come over the top of you over and over.I have employed that strategy a few times when I have been relatively deep in 2-5 $400 max, if I'm sitting in the $800+ stack I'd open a ton of pots at $15 because a player to my left was opening at $40, this usually turns them into the caller and it takes the aggression away from them. I want the aggression. If my $15 wasn't working I would continue doing it and 3-bet him pf liberally like your plan is only I'd be B/3b instead of limp/rr. I guess I have to think about your specific situation some more to give a better response. I'm not sure how well I satisfied your question, maybe you could make the situation more specific?
Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't have any experience in a game like the one you are describing. The actual limits and betting, I have played with incredibly drunk maniacs who think they are the shit though.My strategy greatly changes depending on where I am sitting with regards to the maniacs. If I'm in seat 3 and they are across the table in seat 8 I really don't change my game much and I call him PF lighter and try to play big pots with him postflop when I have top pair or better.If I was sitting directly to the right of aggro maniac my standard line would be to raise pf with all hands I wanted to play but to a smaller amount that the maniac usually raises to pf, and see if he is willing to reraise me pf all the time even if the reraise is only slightly bigger than his normal opener. Usually they just aren't willing to come over the top of you over and over.I have employed that strategy a few times when I have been relatively deep in 2-5 $400 max, if I'm sitting in the $800+ stack I'd open a ton of pots at $15 because a player to my left was opening at $40, this usually turns them into the caller and it takes the aggression away from them. I want the aggression. If my $15 wasn't working I would continue doing it and 3-bet him pf liberally like your plan is only I'd be B/3b instead of limp/rr. I guess I have to think about your specific situation some more to give a better response. I'm not sure how well I satisfied your question, maybe you could make the situation more specific?
No, your response is pretty close to what I'm looking to discuss.In the case of this game, I think one of the biggest factors is the caliber of play of the the REST of the table, and the specific fashion in which they've chosen to deal with the LAGgy play of Sami and Brett. Namely, that they don't 3-bet liberally or play back unless they've picked up a huge hand (AA, KK or QQ, strictly, for all but the final LAG), but instead widen their calling ranges to include some real trash. I feel like if I raise with MY standard range, and Sami decides to call me light or 3-bet liberally, I'm still missing tons of value. The other players will see a flop with trash against Sami, and Brett might push back at Sami, but I'll make a standard raise and get action from a much MUCH narrower range of hands from the other 6 players, and Brett's reraising range would be very narrow against me. More than anything, I was trying to to devise a strategy that gave me a chance to punish as much dead money as possible. I didn't so much care about playing Sami heads/up, or Brett. In fact, I figured that most of the time I got a lot of action from either of them, they were likely to have a real holding, especially if any money went in postflop. They both viewed me as a tight, good player (their mistake).In short, I thought my biggest edge -- probably the biggest edge it's possible to have in a game this loose, period -- was preflop. I have no problem playing after the flop in a reasonable game (even though I'm not even that good of a NL player, in general), but it seemed like a silly idea here, when the most glaring mistakes being made at the table WERE BEING MADE PREFLOP. When the pot gets boosted to 15, and 5 players call, it's a safe bet that people are playing sloppy. And I figured if I wanted to punish people for those mistakes -- the ones being made preflop -- the best way to do it was to hammer away once the pots grew and I had a reasonable holding. But I kinda want to hear what people have to say. I have some more thoughts on the subject. For the record, there were two seats open when I came to the game. One on Sami's right, and one on his left, and I specifically chose the seat on his right.Wang
Link to post
Share on other sites
In short, I thought my biggest edge -- probably the biggest edge it's possible to have in a game this loose, period -- was preflop. I have no problem playing after the flop in a reasonable game (even though I'm not even that good of a NL player, in general), but it seemed like a silly idea here, when the most glaring mistakes being made at the table WERE BEING MADE PREFLOP. When the pot gets boosted to 15, and 5 players call, it's a safe bet that people are playing sloppy. And I figured if I wanted to punish people for those mistakes -- the ones being made preflop -- the best way to do it was to hammer away once the pots grew and I had a reasonable holding. But I kinda want to hear what people have to say. I have some more thoughts on the subject. For the record, there were two seats open when I came to the game. One on Sami's right, and one on his left, and I specifically chose the seat on his right.Wang
You're probably right, you deal the game and came in with a set strategy devised to take the dead money, I'm sure what you came up with makes sense. I can't understand if you're saying that the two ultra lag's are solid or they are sucky. I guess that's what makes a big difference on how to play them, good lags are hard to play against. When I play against good Lags most of my money comes from the players they have tilted and not so much from the Lag unless a shity spot comes up.Another thing that is different for me is that when I play in a game where the avg raises is 7-8x and the avg stack is 50-100bbs if there are generally 5 players to the flop, they usually suck, so I can still get them in horrible shape without having to reraise pf. But that doesn't seem to be the case with the game you are describing.Generally for me, the worse a group of players is the more often I am going to call and see flops because they will stack off lighter, the better the group of players the more I 3bet pf and ratchet up the aggression pf because I need to define their hand and take control of the betting to try and win the hand.
Link to post
Share on other sites
You're probably right, you deal the game and came in with a set strategy devised to take the dead money, I'm sure what you came up with makes sense. I can't understand if you're saying that the two ultra lag's are solid or they are sucky. I guess that's what makes a big difference on how to play them, good lags are hard to play against. When I play against good Lags most of my money comes from the players they have tilted and not so much from the Lag unless a shity spot comes up.Another thing that is different for me is that when I play in a game where the avg raises is 7-8x and the avg stack is 50-100bbs if there are generally 5 players to the flop, they usually suck, so I can still get them in horrible shape without having to reraise pf. But that doesn't seem to be the case with the game you are describing.Generally for me, the worse a group of players is the more often I am going to call and see flops because they will stack off lighter, the better the group of players the more I 3bet pf and ratchet up the aggression pf because I need to define their hand and take control of the betting to try and win the hand.
They're both pretty terrible, but it's important to note that they both give me more credit than they give anyone else. They'd fire 4 bullets against any player at the table except me. Against me they'd both probably shut down if I call a flop bet. I can also have players in bad shape and get paid off, but I feel as if I'd still be losing too much value from hands that like playing against random preflop holdings, like AK, mediocre sized pairs, etc., but often have poor post-flop visibility. And I'm also reluctant to bluff and semi-bluff too liberally, since the pot sizes and loose nature of the game make most bluffs incredibly expensive. I mostly want to steal the dead money the LAG players create by raising the field with any hand that should fair well against the LAGs ranges. They price themselves into making a lot of calls when they bloat the pot, find themselves facing big raises, and can't fold knowing that they're getting good odds in what figures to be a heads/up pot with a 70 dollar overlay. If the game didn't have the two bad/turbo LAGs -- but played just as Loose/Bad postflop -- I'd be much more likely to see cheaper flops, content in the knowledge that if I flop hard and somebody flops at all, I'm going to win a rack of chips regardless of how big the pot was preflop. But the two LAGs make the pots huge, and entice bad players into calling 7xBB raises with K9o and A7 and stuff. It's the sloppy preflop nature of the game -- combined with the 100 dollar max bet -- that makes me think putting in 3rd and 4th raises preflop (while the pot isn't so big that folding is not an option for players with 10-20 dollars in) is the right idea.But I am bad at No Limit, and welcome any and all strategy suggestions, be they specific or very general.Wang
Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless of how good it is on paper, I don't like taking the chance that any of the bad players looks at the pot and decides to play sheriff with QJ soooted or better, and you're essentially flipping a coin.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I play spread-limit cash games five days a week and I agree with your play 100%. They might be loose-aggressive but they aren't going to call off their stack with a hand like QJ especially if you have their respect. They are going to put you on a high pair and fold and you'll take the dead money in the pot.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Regardless of how good it is on paper, I don't like taking the chance that any of the bad players looks at the pot and decides to play sheriff with QJ soooted or better, and you're essentially flipping a coin.
Wait, so you think getting called by QJs is a bad situation here? With all the dead money in the pot, I'll flip a coin 100% of the time and absolutely demolish the game. The whole point of my line is that I'm perfectly comfortable flipping with 75 bucks dead in the middle. I'll take half (or 55%) of that all day every day. I figure my raise is going to win me the entire pot some portion of the time, some random portion of the time Sami or Brett will wake up with AA-JJ, sometimes I'll be flipping, and other times I'll get called by Ace-little or a pair I dominate. If I'm dominated about as often as I'm way ahead -- which is probably very conservative -- I'll show a huge profit by just flipping for the dead money, never mind all the times two overs decide they're way behind and muck.Wang
Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't read a lot of the back and forth between Wang and Skillz.The play is fine. We want as much money in the pot preflop as possible and we especially want people out there fishing with QJ or KJ becuase if we're gonna make this play with KK, we'd hate to have them calling with KJ, right? C'mon people! We have the best hand and we want as much money in the pot right now as we can get. We may win it preflop and we may get a caller or 2 who are making a big mistake putting in so many chips with marginal hands. This is how you play against maniacs. Play back at them and have them make the mistakes.Nice hand Wang.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Regardless of how good it is on paper, I don't like taking the chance that any of the bad players looks at the pot and decides to play sheriff with QJ soooted or better, and you're essentially flipping a coin.
We don't mind them doing it with sooted A-rag, though, which I think is what hero hopes. I don't mind this play in this game, as described. We going to the craps table next?
Link to post
Share on other sites
We don't mind them doing it with sooted A-rag, though, which I think is what hero hopes. I don't mind this play in this game, as described. We going to the craps table next?
No, we're going to the track. Our friend owns one of the horses that runs at Hazel Park, and he consistently provides reliable information, likely to the point that we are at least playing a break-even game. If we're diligent we can probably turn a small profit. I was in a great situation here, because the player most likely to call -- Sami -- was directly to my left, and also the least-likely to need a real hand to call. Brett's calling range was probably tighter than Sami's, and DEFINITELY tighter as the third man into the real pot. In fact, I'm counting on the fact that everyone else's ranges will have shrunk TOO MUCH when I raise the max and somebody calls. I was hoping Sami would call, and everyone else would instafold and Sami would show me trash. Wang
Link to post
Share on other sites
No, we're going to the track. Our friend owns one of the horses that runs at Hazel Park, and he consistently provides reliable information, likely to the point that we are at least playing a break-even game. If we're diligent we can probably turn a small profit. I was in a great situation here, because the player most likely to call -- Sami -- was directly to my left, and also the least-likely to need a real hand to call. Brett's calling range was probably tighter than Sami's, and DEFINITELY tighter as the third man into the real pot. In fact, I'm counting on the fact that everyone else's ranges will have shrunk TOO MUCH when I raise the max and somebody calls. I was hoping Sami would call, and everyone else would instafold and Sami would show me trash. Wang
LOL, sounds like we're in agreement about everything.
Link to post
Share on other sites

just play war?....it sounds like u can push your chips in with any 2 cards here, hope their live, and at worst you're a 40/60 dog. i mean, guy blind raises, guy re-raises after only 1 card. either you're making itsound like the perfect setup to push, or these guys are idiots and you should take out a loan.

Link to post
Share on other sites
just play war?....it sounds like u can push your chips in with any 2 cards here, hope their live, and at worst you're a 40/60 dog. i mean, guy blind raises, guy re-raises after only 1 card. either you're making itsound like the perfect setup to push, or these guys are idiots and you should take out a loan.
What the fuck are you talking about? I'm not pushing with any two cards. I'm pushing with TT against two very aggressive players who get inappropriately loose/passive players to put a lot of money into the pot they're willing to abandon.I'm not making it SOUND like anything. I'm explaining the actions throughout the course of the hand. These guys ARE idiots. And "you should take out a loan"? What the fuck are you talking about?Wang
Link to post
Share on other sites
What the fuck are you talking about? I'm not pushing with any two cards. I'm pushing with TT against two very aggressive players who get inappropriately loose/passive players to put a lot of money into the pot they're willing to abandon.I'm not making it SOUND like anything. I'm explaining the actions throughout the course of the hand. These guys ARE idiots. And "you should take out a loan"? What the fuck are you talking about?Wang
dude, this is strat section, you dont need to take the time to spell f-bombs out with sizing. what i'm saying is I really dont think the hand is important. You have 2 idiots, 1 looks at 1 card, the other raises blind and invests money like a fool. whats important is making this more to steal dead money. TT is obv a fav. do i like throwing all my money in with TT pf and letting all 5 cards come out? NOt really. which is why i said take out a loan. Meaning, i'd love to get more money to play these fools, but when playing maniacs you run the risk of taking beats when luck is against you.
Link to post
Share on other sites
dude, this is strat section, you dont need to take the time to spell f-bombs out with sizing. what i'm saying is I really dont think the hand is important. You have 2 idiots, 1 looks at 1 card, the other raises blind and invests money like a fool. whats important is making this more to steal dead money. TT is obv a fav. do i like throwing all my money in with TT pf and letting all 5 cards come out? NOt really. which is why i said take out a loan. Meaning, i'd love to get more money to play these fools, but when playing maniacs you run the risk of taking beats when luck is against you.
It's not like he's doing this with garbage. He as TT. He likely has the best hand. Why would he not want to get as much money into the pot now as humanly possible? That's all I wanna know. If we have the best hand, why are you saying that you don't wanna jam the pot?
Link to post
Share on other sites
It's not like he's doing this with garbage. He as TT. He likely has the best hand. Why would he not want to get as much money into the pot now as humanly possible? That's all I wanna know. If we have the best hand, why are you saying that you don't wanna jam the pot?
I never said that.read.
Link to post
Share on other sites
do i like throwing all my money in with TT pf and letting all 5 cards come out? NOt really.
I guess that's what I'm reacting to. You should be eager to get money in there.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...