Stylistic 0 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Hi guys,I recently spoke to a pastor about some problems in my life and I revealed to him that I was a professional poker player (this occupation has nothing to do with my problems btw). Instead of going deep into my problems in life which is why I went there in the first place to do, I ended up having a little debate with him whether or not playing poker is a "righteous" thing. Of course, there are definitely arguments that can go both ways, but then again there are just so many professions out there that are not "righteous". For example: owning a fast food restaurant. The food is unhealthy and people can get sick from it, so why sale such products - yet people still buy it. Daytrading etc.. blah blahAnyway, I wasn't offended by the pastor's opinion, in fact, I am fascinated about debates and I'm very opened to other's opinions, however I was shaken by something else he said. He told me that many other pastors would agree with him that playing poker is not a "righteous profession" in that you are benefiting from the suffering of other people. And that some pastors may even believe you can go to "hell" for something like that. Some not all, and he is definitely not one to believe such thing. But he believes that there is a way of living that can be "better". He basically told me that God may have given me the ability to make money, but I chose to do it by playing poker .I would like to know all your thoughts regarding this issue. I brought up Daniel Negreanu and Doyle Brunson in relations to this topic and he became very curious about their rational on their beliefs while playing poker. I remember a while ago Daniel wrote an article or blog entry regarding this issue but I can't seem to find it! Can someone please please direct me to it as I would like to email this to my pastor. I remember DN writing about how there is no verse in the bible that says gambling is a sin and that even God made a wager with Satan himself. Please help me find this link as I've gone through many search engines trying to find it. Thanks guys. Link to post Share on other sites
Vick07 0 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 And that some pastors may even believe you can go to "hell" for something like that.I'm pretty sure you don't have to worry about that...And you aren't making money at the suffering of other people.... They choose to play you in poker, and they choose to put their money on the table. Link to post Share on other sites
Stylistic 0 Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 I'm pretty sure you don't have to worry about that...And you aren't making money at the suffering of other people.... They choose to play you in poker, and they choose to put their money on the table.I totally agree and that was one of my reasonings when I was talking to my pastor. However he says "you are contributing to something that creates suffering for other people" Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 However he says "you are contributing to something that creates suffering for other people"ask him if he voted for bush. Link to post Share on other sites
KramitDaToad 0 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Hi guys,I recently spoke to a pastor about some problems in my life and I revealed to him that I was a professional poker player (this occupation has nothing to do with my problems btw). Instead of going deep into my problems in life which is why I went there in the first place to do, I ended up having a little debate with him whether or not playing poker is a "righteous" thing. Of course, there are definitely arguments that can go both ways, but then again there are just so many professions out there that are not "righteous". For example: owning a fast food restaurant. The food is unhealthy and people can get sick from it, so why sale such products - yet people still buy it. Daytrading etc.. blah blahAnyway, I wasn't offended by the pastor's opinion, in fact, I am fascinated about debates and I'm very opened to other's opinions, however I was shaken by something else he said. He told me that many other pastors would agree with him that playing poker is not a "righteous profession" in that you are benefiting from the suffering of other people. And that some pastors may even believe you can go to "hell" for something like that. Some not all, and he is definitely not one to believe such thing. But he believes that there is a way of living that can be "better". He basically told me that God may have given me the ability to make money, but I chose to do it by playing poker .I would like to know all your thoughts regarding this issue. I brought up Daniel Negreanu and Doyle Brunson in relations to this topic and he became very curious about their rational on their beliefs while playing poker. I remember a while ago Daniel wrote an article or blog entry regarding this issue but I can't seem to find it! Can someone please please direct me to it as I would like to email this to my pastor. I remember DN writing about how there is no verse in the bible that says gambling is a sin and that even God made a wager with Satan himself. Please help me find this link as I've gone through many search engines trying to find it. Thanks guys.Here's a old post from DN that may help http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...st&p=493891He usually talks of his relationship with God as a personal one so if you search his posts here for 'personal' you will come up with others. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 The pastor's opinion is outrageously paternalistic. Does he think that football players are playing an evil game because the fans pay money to see them play? No, because the fan is getting something for their dollar. People play poker for many reasons, and not all of them are to win money. Sometimes it's just entertainment to pass the hours, sometimes it's to make a living, sometimes it for the social aspects, and sometimes it's just because they don't mind paying for the right to dream for a while. This last one is the reason people play the lottery. I know my odds of winning the lottery are so close to zero as to be negligible, but the $1 cost of the ticket is also negligible, and I get to dream for a couple of days and check my numbers and see if I won. That's $1 worth of entertainment. Many people play poker for that same reason -- the cost of admission vs the right to shoot for that miracle run of cards is worth it to them.The pastor's notion that these people are somehow in pain or being taken advantage of is the same paternalistic crap we get from politicians and religious leaders everywhere: the people are not smart enough to make tradeoffs in their lives, so us smart people need to protect them from their own choices. Everyone should be sick of that message by now.Find a new church. Link to post Share on other sites
Sheiky 0 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 I think if your pastor really understood poker like you do he wouldn't have the same opinion.Poker has a really awful reputation among a lot of people, especialy religious ones, i doubt he really understands the skill involved and the people who play it. Link to post Share on other sites
Stylistic 0 Posted August 31, 2007 Author Share Posted August 31, 2007 awesome thanks, I needed that link. I didnt know u can search for people's posts with filters like "personal". I'm still trying to figure out how it's done. I'm able to search for every post that DN makes, but I cant seem to find a way to filter. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,354 Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I think if your pastor really understood poker like you do he wouldn't have the same opinion.Poker has a really awful reputation among a lot of people, especialy religious ones, i doubt he really understands the skill involved and the people who play it.yeah, I'm sure his pastor would love the boys in bobby's room. Link to post Share on other sites
KramitDaToad 0 Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 awesome thanks, I needed that link. I didnt know u can search for people's posts with filters like "personal". I'm still trying to figure out how it's done. I'm able to search for every post that DN makes, but I cant seem to find a way to filter.Clicking search in the top right of the screen followed by 'More Search Options' takes you here: http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru....php?act=SearchIf you are still lost after that then PM dna4ever Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 I'm fairly certain religion has been the cause of more suffering than poker ever will be. Link to post Share on other sites
donk4life 34 Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 I'm fairly certain religion has been the cause of more suffering than poker ever will be.love it Link to post Share on other sites
Petoria 0 Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 ...and the winner of this thread is...... I'm fairly certain religion has been the cause of more suffering than poker ever will be.taking 2nd place......ask him if he voted for bush.and a noteworthy honorable mention....I think if your pastor really understood poker like you do he wouldn't have the same opinion.Poker has a really awful reputation among a lot of people, especialy religious ones, i doubt he really understands the skill involved and the people who play it.Honor Link to post Share on other sites
bobbywithani 0 Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Arguing that there is skill in poker ignores the fact that a lot of money is made from problem gamblers, which I think is the reason why some religious types don't like it. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 Romans says a few things I refer to for this debate.first: To him who considers it to be sin, to him it is sin.I'm sure you see this in context to not give license to do anything, but when things are not clear, then this applies. So when I smoke a cigar, I am fine knowing that I am not sinning, but for me drinking is sin. (me, not you or others, 25 years sober)second: All things are lawful for me, but I will not be a slave to anythingTies in with first point, personal reflection on whether or not you are abusing something. Even a non sin like eating can be wrong, gluttony.third: I will not do something that will cause a younger brother to stumble.Lastly I am not given permission to flaunt my choices onto others. I do not smoke in front of people that consider smokin a sin. I do not have the right to cause someone else to stumble. Because caring about others takes precidence over caring about myself.Hope this helps. But I would say that being upfront and not hiding your poker playing with some mature brothers will help you keep from allowing this to become sinful for you. Ask your pastor to keep you accountable and donate time on the bingo night( cheap catholic dig) Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,354 Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 Romans says a few things I refer to for this debate.first: To him who considers it to be sin, to him it is sin.I'm sure you see this in context to not give license to do anything, but when things are not clear, then this applies. So when I smoke a cigar, I am fine knowing that I am not sinning, but for me drinking is sin. (me, not you or others, 25 years sober)second: All things are lawful for me, but I will not be a slave to anythingTies in with first point, personal reflection on whether or not you are abusing something. Even a non sin like eating can be wrong, gluttony.third: I will not do something that will cause a younger brother to stumble.Lastly I am not given permission to flaunt my choices onto others. I do not smoke in front of people that consider smokin a sin. I do not have the right to cause someone else to stumble. Because caring about others takes precidence over caring about myself.Hope this helps. But I would say that being upfront and not hiding your poker playing with some mature brothers will help you keep from allowing this to become sinful for you. Ask your pastor to keep you accountable and donate time on the bingo night( cheap catholic dig)On a serious note, Congrats on the 25 years sober. I don't know if it was an issue for you, but I take from the way you put it that it was. Congrats. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 On a serious note, Congrats on the 25 years sober. I don't know if it was an issue for you, but I take from the way you put it that it was. Congrats.Thanks, I don't really make a big deal of it anymore. I haven't drank for so long it's really not a part of my life anymore at all. Link to post Share on other sites
FoxwoodsPro 0 Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 Thanks, I don't really make a big deal of it anymore. I haven't drank for so long it's really not a part of my life anymore at all.me too Link to post Share on other sites
addaminsane 0 Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 I am a christian and a poker player as well. I have wandered the same issue and it seems to me like its not in the profession but how you proclaim christ in your life, how you love others, and how you represent Christ basically. Obviously there are many professions which would be directly rebellious to How God would have you Lead Your Life. Its mainly in your motivation. You can be in any profession and simply not be honorable to Christ.Jesus Turned Water Into Wine and people got drunk off of it. Did he cause them to sin? No. He turned water into wine in a time of celebration and some people took it overboard. You can sin in anything. You can eat too much. You can drink too much. Basically, Selfishness is sinful. Over indulgence is sinful. I believe a Man can be a poker player and it the right mindset honor God. God calls individuals into a relationship, not necesarilly into a career.Sin is simply not trusting Christ. Homosexuality is not a sin as a noun. It is a sin in relationship to the "Standard Relationship God Made" It is simply a form of sexual immorality. A man cheating on his wife or lusting after other women is, in the sameway, desecrating the "Standard Relationship God Made"I gave those example basically because I think this question of "Is being a poker player righteous or not" all revolves around sin. Are you trusting in the Promises of God? Are You Loving others and Proclaiming Christ? Those are just a few questions you have to ask yourself and be honest with yourself about. If you are unable to do as a poker player then you should stop. If you can keep a right frame of mind, fine."whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it to the Glory of God" Link to post Share on other sites
Stylistic 0 Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 Yeah this makes a lot of sense. I really like the Jesus turning water into wine xample. I really feel like I've come to the understanding of this subject very well, but I think being judged by other people who don't know anything about poker is where it's hard for us poker players. I mean, imagine going into a church with people not liking your lifestyle. I know every church knows that people sin and that they should not judge people based off of that, but when the subject is about gambling and "taking money from others", it's as though this is worst than any other sin. Link to post Share on other sites
chrisuk_sw 0 Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 One thing that I think that everyone speaking up for poker here needs to take into account is that poker is a zero-sum game, and is therefore a zero-sum occupation. Your fictional friend involved in the fast food business is not involved in a zero-sum occupation because his/her activity adds to the overall net wealth of humanity. In playing poker, you are not creating anything or adding anything to the world, just extracting wealth from those that have created it elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now