Limit Hold'em Help

[Kuge 0]

I am mainly a tourney player but I always sucked at ring games. I want to give limit hold'em a try, however I don't know what I should be doing most of the time (for example I could have Q8 sooted in BB and UTG raises and their are 4 callers, do I call in that situation since the pot odds are so good, or am I just spewing chips in these marginal situations).I don't know if playing at a 10 person table is better than playing at a 6 person table.Are there any books out there than can help me out with limit hold'em? Do you guys have any basic info to at least not make me spew chips in limit?Right now I am currently playing .50/1 since I want to get used to playing it (and well) before I move up in limits.Also, would be be that much harder to multitable playing limit?I apologize for sounding like a newbie, this topic may fall in the limit hold'em forum, but it looks like they don't get many responses so I decided to put the topic here.

[ghostlove 0]

especially at .50/1, ive been playing a little differently.ive read hellmuths book on limit, and he says play ony the good hands, blah blah, top ten hands and so forth.but for the past couplde weeks ive been limping a lot more preflop (especcially at my local cardroom) and finding the results to be a lot better.ive been mainly doing this because of the high level of pre flop players. if there are 6-7 pre flop players in a hand, then limping with 88-qq is the correct play, and rasing is not worth it. even in early position, liming with aa and kk is not bad, because it you raise, and have 6 callers, we are less than 25% to win, so a raise is the incorrect play.other than that, ive been playing pot odds a lot more, like if there ar 6 callers in front of you, and you have 89os, i call, because the pot is telling me too.but also dont be afraid to let it go on the flop, or for that matter, if it is raised PF then a fold is correct.drawing past the turn when the bets are doubled is questionable, unless you have a monster draw.so pretty much, i went from playing about 20-25% of the hands to about 35-40%, based on position, pot size, and a greater number of pre flop limps.at a higher limit level, tho, i play tighter, and riase pf more, becuase those people respect raises. its a completly different game at a higher limit.

[KramitDaToad 0]

especially at .50/1, ive been playing a little differently.ive read hellmuths book on limit, and he says play ony the good hands, blah blah, top ten hands and so forth.but for the past couplde weeks ive been limping a lot more preflop (especcially at my local cardroom) and finding the results to be a lot better.ive been mainly doing this because of the high level of pre flop players. if there are 6-7 pre flop players in a hand, then limping with 88-qq is the correct play, and rasing is not worth it. even in early position, liming with aa and kk is not bad, because it you raise, and have 6 callers, we are less than 25% to win, so a raise is the incorrect play.other than that, ive been playing pot odds a lot more, like if there ar 6 callers in front of you, and you have 89os, i call, because the pot is telling me too.but also dont be afraid to let it go on the flop, or for that matter, if it is raised PF then a fold is correct.drawing past the turn when the bets are doubled is questionable, unless you have a monster draw.so pretty much, i went from playing about 20-25% of the hands to about 35-40%, based on position, pot size, and a greater number of pre flop limps.at a higher limit level, tho, i play tighter, and riase pf more, becuase those people respect raises. its a completly different game at a higher limit.

Best jopke post todayOP - Get Small Stakes Hold'Em by Ed Miller and don't look backStart with 10 handed - less variance

[Zach6668 513]

Yeah, OP, whatever you do, don't listen to ghostlove, apparently. Actually, pretty well do the opposite of that. Post in the LHE forum. Also, I'll take a look at this a bit more in depth when I get home tonight.

[Sheiky 0]

I would reccomend checking out Smasharoo's attempt to turn $50 into $1000 playing only limit ring games - http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...p;#entry1360025It really helped me a lot.Low-limit ring game poker requires a very very simple ABC approach for you to be successfull.Bet when you have the best hand, call when you have a worthy draw, and fold everything else.You should 3 bet big hands like AK AA KK AQ QQ where possible, DON'T limp with your premium hands, when you have a good hand you should raise to get more money in the pot when you have the best of it, don't be afraid of raising UTG with AA and having everyone fold, at lower limits this will almost never happen.If there's a lot of limping and your in late position, loosen up your starting hand requirements, i would play any pair and small suited connectors down to 56s if i had the button and there were 4-5-6 limpers before me. However, don't play these hand in early position, if you call most likely someone will raise behind you and you'll have to pay more to see a flop than you wanted to. In a full ring game, i'd throw away small pairs (4s,3s,2s) if i was the first player in from EP or MP. Don't fall in love with small pairs, and whatever you do DON'T call two cold with them pre-flop, they are not worth it. In no limit sometimes you see people calling raises with hands like 56s or pocket 3s (Doyle Brunson does this alot), that works because in now limit poker you have the chance to take the whole of your opponents chips in one hand, it does not work in limit because you aren't going to be able to get enough money from those hands when you hit a set or a straight to make it worth calling in the first place.On the flop, hardly ever slow play. In a limit game, when you get to the flop your opponents are often going to call because of the money already in the pot. If you flop the stone cold nuts, bet and raise, you will get enough callers and maybe even a chance to re-raise when it gets back to you. The aim of limit poker is to attain the best hand and have weaker players call you you with a worse hand.Cut bluffing from your game, it doesn't work in limit poker against donkeys, i've seen people call to the river with pocket 2s on an AAK78 board, even if the have as little as two overcards or bottom pair they will call you.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Yeah, OP, whatever you do, don't listen to ghostlove, apparently. Actually, pretty well do the opposite of that. Post in the LHE forum. Also, I'll take a look at this a bit more in depth when I get home tonight.

lolalso, do the opposite of this entire thread and get good at NL ring games

[MinhLyFan 1]

If you are playing online and you are going to be playing limit, I'd suggest to start learning shorthanded asap. The play at 6max tables is far worse than that at full ring games at the same limits. More variance, but more hands=more money.

[ghostlove 0]

Yeah, OP, whatever you do, don't listen to ghostlove, apparently. Actually, pretty well do the opposite of that. Post in the LHE forum. Also, I'll take a look at this a bit more in depth when I get home tonight.

yeah good luck with that then.and whats wrong with hellmuths play poker like the pros. its very good imo.and good luck then playing 15% of the hands at .50/1 and getting 7 callers with a pf raise w/ aa.

[ghostlove 0]

all i was sying is i tried this new "looser" style.be aggressive when u hit, fold when u dont, limp more.helped me bank 160 playing 1-2 limit the other day.

[ghostlove 0]

and yeah, if ur in early position with AA, and the table is loose with 6-7 caller PF, AA is not favored to win.

[antistuff 0]

if you want to learn a new game there are better games to learn.

[ghostlove 0]

i guess i can see where some might thinkim crazy, but im not saying play k9 or j8, or not to rais aa.if there are three people or 4 people in a pot, then yes, it is correct to raise, or if you are in early position at a table that actually plays, then yes, raise.but, at my cardroom, when there are really 6-7 callers no matter what, because they dont car about the money, thats then im saying to limp.you cant treat all games the same.

[RabidTortuga 0]

and yeah, if ur in early position with AA, and the table is loose with 6-7 caller PF, AA is not favored to win.

You don't understand limit poker.AA is not a favorite against the entire field, but it's still the hand with the highest chance to win compared to each other hand. Even if all ten players come into the pot, you are a favorite and have an equity edge, and therefore make money with each additional bet that goes into the pot.With 10 players in, your fair share would be 10% of the pot. You probably have equity (those little percentages ESPN shows) of at least 20-25%, meaning your hand should win about that often. Lets call it 20%. That means for every bet that goes into the pot, you expect to win 20% of it. If 10 players put $1 in the pot, you own $2, or 1/5th of the pot, but you only put in 1/10th of the money. The more bets that go into the pot, the more money you win.You cannot win long term at limit poker by being passive. You will miss to many bets with your big hands to offset the money you will inevitably lose in the blinds.

[ghostlove 0]

actually, i do understand it.if that many people go to the flop, if u hit, then play agressive. i understand that ur saying ur missing out on bets.like i said i tried this passive pf stlye/ aggressive after flop if you hit, and i found it worked very well.someone reaises from utg, 5 callers, im in the SB with AA, u say to raise??that play is questionable, beacuse u knew everyone is going to call. flop come kkq, u obv have to fold. u wernt a favorite going to the flop against the field.i would raise if there were only 2 callers, but against a larger field, id rather see a flop.

[wsox8 10]

I raising aces anytime regardless of position/amount of players.Maybe that's why I suck

[Spence 0]

Check out the limit section in supersystem 2. Jen did a great job. I also disagree with Ghostlove and i'm a winning LHE player .25/.50 all the way to 10/20.Limit is a game of small edges, if you aren't taking advantage of every edge you get then you aren't maximizing your profits.I think my biggest tip for a new LHE player that isn't as experienced is don't fold moderate hands to a single bet on the river. I see that all the time by novice players. You have to be correct 8/10 or sometimes 9/10 times for that play to be correct, and I can assure you you will snap off a bluff or lower strength hand 3 or 4 out of those 10 hands.That's not to say I advocate being a calling station, play your hands aggressively, but with medium strength hands on the river don't be afraid to check / call. You will snap off alot of bluffs this way, and won't get raised when you're behind.

[ghostlove 0]

nice avatar btw spence.i, too have read that section, and yes it is very good.what would you do with a marginal hand, like 99 or 1010 pf with 6 or 7 callers in front of you, when there is a 93% chance an overcard will hit the flop?you cant tell me that rasing here is a good play, too.i do agree with the aces, and you do have to put as many bets in with the best had and such a sttrong hand. it just doesnt seem profitable to put in more bets when you are not a favorite against the field, and a large feild of 6-8 players.

[Spence 0]

well now you have a very valid point. I'd be set hunting preflop, but even with TT I might be raising out of the blinds. There's still a good chance you'll get all undercards. As you go with 99-22 that definitely changes especially the farther you go down.I understand the reasoning behind not raising, you're giving odds for everything to chase once the flop comes out, but I think using AA as an example wasn't the best choice.and thanks for the compliment about the avatar .

[RabidTortuga 0]

nice avatar btw spence.i, too have read that section, and yes it is very good.what would you do with a marginal hand, like 99 or 1010 pf with 6 or 7 callers in front of you, when there is a 93% chance an overcard will hit the flop?you cant tell me that rasing here is a good play, too.i do agree with the aces, and you do have to put as many bets in with the best had and such a sttrong hand. it just doesnt seem profitable to put in more bets when you are not a favorite against the field, and a large feild of 6-8 players.

Any time you can get more bets in when your equity is higher than your fair share of the pot, you should be looking to get as many chips into the pot as possible. Any time. TT and 99 have an equity edge in an unraised pot, and sometimes even in a raised pot, depending on the raiser.If we're going to use funky poker math like 93% that an overcard will flop to TT, then we can also use the theory that if alot of people are in the pot, there are fewer piant cards left in the deck to hit the flop anyway, so it's actually less likely that an overcard will hit. (Both are inherently incorrect, btw, but the latter is far more plausible than the former.)Not to mention, if even one person folds to your raise(and it does happen, especially at the lower limits), your equity edge gets even larger. Equity edges is where your profit comes from in limit hold-em.Last point. Calling is the weakest play you can make in limit hold-em on any street. You should always be looking for reasons to raise. Raising only increases your chances of winning any pot, unless you are raising into the nuts or someone who has never, ever folded.

[ghostlove 0]

sorry, ur right, 93% and overcard to 99 will appear by the irver, 79 % it will hit on the flop.not incorrect.and i agree about the raising once you connect, but to raise 99 ina 6 way pot is -ev

[ghostlove 0]

and ur right, trying to make this point with the AA example was a terrible idea, so lets scratch that whole thing.

[RabidTortuga 0]

and i agree about the raising once you connect, but to raise 99 ina 6 way pot is -ev

From Pokerstove.99 vs. 5 random hands 2,531,998 games 84.547 secs 29,947 games/secBoard: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 26.649% 26.31% 00.34% 666229 8517.33 { 9c9d }Hand 1: 14.656% 13.77% 00.89% 348663 22431.33 { random }Hand 2: 14.686% 13.80% 00.88% 349454 22392.00 { random }Hand 3: 14.689% 13.80% 00.89% 349455 22471.42 { random }Hand 4: 14.639% 13.75% 00.89% 348180 22482.58 { random }Hand 5: 14.681% 13.80% 00.88% 349498 22224.33 { random }99 vs any suited, and broadway, any pair, 5 other players 2,540,739 games 64.343 secs 39,487 games/secBoard: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 21.491% 21.23% 00.26% 539501 6522.50 { 9c9d }Hand 1: 15.712% 14.98% 00.73% 380640 18551.08 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }Hand 2: 15.692% 14.95% 00.74% 379862 18838.92 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }Hand 3: 15.702% 14.96% 00.74% 380134 18824.50 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }Hand 4: 15.708% 14.97% 00.74% 380413 18687.75 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }Hand 5: 15.695% 14.96% 00.73% 380204 18560.25 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }Vs. a reasonable limping range, 5 other players 2,546,912 games 80.781 secs 31,528 games/secBoard: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 23.241% 23.03% 00.21% 586502 5419.00 { 9c9d }Hand 1: 15.346% 14.25% 01.10% 362924 27914.00 { 88-22, AQs-A2s, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }Hand 2: 15.354% 14.25% 01.10% 362951 28099.17 { 88-22, AQs-A2s, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }Hand 3: 15.369% 14.28% 01.09% 363646 27799.17 { 88-22, AQs-A2s, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }Hand 4: 15.309% 14.21% 01.10% 361927 27987.25 { 88-22, AQs-A2s, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }Hand 5: 15.381% 14.29% 01.09% 363886 27857.42 { 88-22, AQs-A2s, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }We have an equity edge against 5 random hands, against 5 players who play any broadway, any pair, and any two suited, and against 5 players with a reasonable preflop limping range.Raising with an equity edge is +ev.

[antistuff 0]

ghostlove, you have a very poor understanding of limit holdem. sorry, but its true. the whole idea of equity seems to go straight over your head. not trying to be mean.

[Flushgarden 0]

someone reaises from utg, 5 callers, im in the SB with AA, u say to raise??that play is questionable, beacuse u knew everyone is going to call. flop come kkq, u obv have to fold. u wernt a favorite going to the flop against the field.i would raise if there were only 2 callers, but against a larger field, id rather see a flop.

WRONG! Check yourself before you wreck yourself.In this case you're slowly wrecking yourself by missing out on equity. Read SSHE now...or don't, and come play at my table.

[Zach6668 513]

omg!I'm not sure where to start with you, ghostlove.You're soooooooo wrong with basically everything you've written in this thread, that I think it's probably better to just let you think you're a good player.