my thoughts on kurt's final hand

[DanielNegreanu 141]

First of all, I need to make sure that the following is correct? Well Kurt is out sadly He went out on the river this is the hand as he relayed it to me on the phone. J-10 BB - 2 Limpers Flop comes Q - K - A Rainbow Kurt - Checks MP - Checks MP1 - Bet to 1,200 Kurt and MP call Turn is another Ace Kurt - Checks MP - Checks MP1 - Bet to 3,500 Kurt figures him for trip Aces and pushes all-in for 16,500 Guy calls and turns over A-9 River is a K, Guy wins and Kurt is out of the tournament. Not a huge deal really. Actually I'm a little surprised that it's garnered so much attention. This is how I would have played the turn though: Since I just called on the flop with the hand I'm just going to call on the turn rather than go all in. I don't consider the Ace a "GIN card" at all. It's a potentially horrible card as there is no valid reason to think that the limpers couldn't have A-K, A-Q, A-A, K-K, Q-Q. Seriously, people limp strong all the time. Now, even if I thought I had my opponent beat I would still just call. Why? Well because if I KNEW my opponent had an ACE but wasn't full yet, I could avoid going broke if the river comes an A, K, or a Q by just calling. Playing it my way he would likely still have 13,000 left since I doubt he could call on a board of A A K K Q. Having said that, I don't think Kurt made a "mistake" at all. If it was a cash game he got his money in good and got unlucky, but in a tournament where survival is so important, I would have waited to see a safe river card before going all in.

[augmented 0]

yay. you all happy now?

[Scott3705 0]

Guaranteed this will turn into another 10 page thread.

[Guest XXEddie]

Guaranteed this will turn into another 10 page thread.

i say 15 just cause DN started it....way to go Daniel!!!

[Suited_Up 2]

I'm sure it will drag out also.I've done all the explaining i possibly can though.Thanks for the thoughts though Daniel. All I can really say to respond though, Is that when that Ace fell and we both checked to him again, he seemed pretty confused by it. Genuinely didn't seem like he had the full house hand. I couldn't really tell you if he had a weak ace or one of the other cards, but I was fairly sure it wasn't AK or AQ. Once we checked he kinda shot a look. Like what the heck did you call with if that didn't help your hand type of deal. So I figured he was weak one way or another.... So I took a shot figuring I had the best hand. Oh well.

[Vertigo 0]

Good answer DN. Is that not exactly what Smash said too? And everyone was all over him for that...

[Suited_Up 2]

Good answer DN. Is that not exactly what Smash said too? And everyone was all over him for that...

Maybe because DN never called me a moron for my play and blah blah type of comments? He just said he would have made that play. I still don't mind mine though.

[wolfman50 0]

although daniel said that he would've played the hand a particular way he also said that suited up's play was not a mistake at all. he did what he thought was best and i think that suited up's play was fine. daniel was just giving his 2 cents on the issue though, no need for this to re-open a flame war.

[wrto4556 0]

Yes, yall are right. There is more than one way to play the hand. But one is better than the other.

[akishore 0]

although daniel said that he would've played the hand a particular play he also said that suited up's play was not a mistake at all. he did what he thought was best and i think that suited up's play was fine. daniel was just giving his 2 cents on the issue though, no need for this to re-open a flame war.

[Suited_Up 2]

Here... Lets discuss another hand I came across in Vegas and see what everyone thinks of it.$200 max NL table. 1/2 blinds.I am in late position with :clubsa: :clubsk: Fold, fold, Limp, Fold, Raise to $12 (was pretty standard), Caller...I just call the $12 and limper calls as well.Flop: :clubs9: :diamondsk: :clubs10: EP Limper bets $15 PF Raiser makes it $70MP folds.I Move in for $172 total. With TPTK and nut flush draw.EP bettor thinks awhile and makes the call for over $150 more.Raiser is beside himself trying to figure out what we have, and very grudgingly folds his hand.Caller turns over :spades9: :spades10: for 2 pair. I figured I might be behind and needed a club anyway, but just a little shocked to see it was bottom 2 pair.Turn blanks River is the :spadesk: Folder had AK as well, and instead of a club, I hit the case King and won a pot of $459. The folder was pretty mad to say the least :)I cashed out soon thereafter. Yay for NL.

[wrto4556 0]

It shouldn't become a flamewar....I don't know what to say. There was a better way to play the hand. Call the turn. Noones saying kurt made a bad play. We are saying there was a better option. It's just poker freaks that have to critique every goddamn hand possible. No offense.

[wrto4556 0]

That hand was played good. You got your money in as a favorite. But that was a cash game, right?

[Suited_Up 2]

That hand was played good. You got your money in as a favorite. But that was a cash game, right?

Yeah it was. And I do see the difference, lol. I just figured he was weak on the tourney hand, and wanted to make the strong play. Didn't work out, maybe I'll learn from it, lol.

[Vertigo 0]

Good answer DN. Is that not exactly what Smash said too? And everyone was all over him for that...

Maybe because DN never called me a moron for my play and blah blah type of comments? He just said he would have made that play. I still don't mind mine though.

I'm sorry, I forgot about the moron parts. And I never said I disagreed with your play either. I liked your play too, although I'm not sure I would have checked both the flop and turn. Just a personal thing though, because I hate slowplaying because it always bites me in the ass. As for Daniel's response, I do like the way he put it though. That might have been the best way to play it, because even if the K didn't hit on the river, that guy still might of thought you were just taking a stab with a big bet on the river, and likely called with trips, possibly thinking you just had 2 pair or something. Anyways, sucks you got sucked out like that but I hope you had a great time and enjoyed some valuable experience!

[gobears 0]

Here... Lets discuss another hand I came across in Vegas and see what everyone thinks of it.$200 max NL table. 1/2 blinds.I am in late position with :clubsa: :clubsk: Fold, fold, Limp, Fold, Raise to $12 (was pretty standard), Caller...I just call the $12 and limper calls as well.Flop: :clubs9: :diamondsk: :clubs10: EP Limper bets $15 PF Raiser makes it $70MP folds.I Move in for $172 total. With TPTK and nut flush draw.EP bettor thinks awhile and makes the call for over $150 more.Raiser is beside himself trying to figure out what we have, and very grudgingly folds his hand.Caller turns over :spades9: :spades10: for 2 pair. I figured I might be behind and needed a club anyway, but just a little shocked to see it was bottom 2 pair.Turn blanks River is the :spadesk: Folder had AK as well, and instead of a club, I hit the case King and won a pot of $459. The folder was pretty mad to say the least :)I cashed out soon thereafter. Yay for NL.

Very nicely played! - surprised that EP called you with a raise and a re-raise after his initial bet with only bottom 2 pair. Plus he was in the middle without last action.Sounds pretty loose at the tables!

[wolfman50 0]

It shouldn't become a flamewar....I don't know what to say. There was a better way to play the hand. Call the turn. Noones saying kurt made a bad play. We are saying there was a better option. It's just poker freaks that have to critique every censored hand possible. No offense.

i agree, i'm just saying there are different ways to play it and i dont think his play was bad. i was just saying that there was no need for those "poker freaks" to come out and critique like they have for the previous ten page threads for the same exact subject. the hand is over, it's been talked about more than enough, there's no reason for anyone to get into arguments about this hand anymore IMO.

[Suited_Up 2]

Your statement there did bring up a point that hasn't really been mentioned. Well it seems like you kinda meant it....Maybe a bet on the turn card would be better than either one. And if I had more time to think, maybe I would have done that, but things happen fast, and if I take too long to really think about that card, it makes my hand more obvious, so I checked to see what happened behind me, and gave me a little more time to decide what to do. But a bet might have worked best, gives me the lead in the hand, he may very well flat call, and then I see the river for my price. Eh, I dunno... all 3 could have worked, honestly... he was close to folding.

[Suited_Up 2]

Very nicely played! - surprised that EP called you with a raise and a re-raise after his initial bet with only bottom 2 pair. Plus he was in the middle without last action.Sounds pretty loose at the tables!

Yeah, it was just loose enough. The guy who called had already rebought for 200 twice. So he was completely too loose. He'd call almost any bet. Even one of the players who was playing halfways decent kept calling "just to see"

[Diabolical 0]

i'd say the reason it went on so long is that you didn't want to acknowledge the alternative. If you noticed the thread about DN's last hand entitled "What Happened", it wasn't very long at all cause he wasn't on there posting about how he made the right play and all of you who don't agree are flat out wrongOnce DN chimes in about your hand, you deflated!!! :naughty: Dam your stubborn!!! If you would still argue your point even though DN disagreed with you, i would see that you had REAL convictions about how you played and thus would have some respect for the way your "defending" yourself.(you still may have those strong feelings but your keeping them under your hat now)I was also suspecting that you wanted to have one of the longest threads on this site devoted to talkin about you (and not smash for a change)There,.........i said it.....hows your mom?Some of these FCPers know what there talkin about. Listen :shhh: and quit yappin :dance: so much. I saw you call people names also. So don't point your finger at "all" those who disagreed with you as flamers. Some were trying to help you.I'm tryin to see your point of view,.......................................i jus can't get my head that far up my ass!!

[Guest]

I see DN responded to kurts hand and he said pretty much exactly the same as I said in the 10 page thread ...hmmmmmmm I guess you need to have a gazzilion post on here for your opinions to be taking seriously........In case any of you are wondering what i'm talking about here's the link...Page 2 near the top....http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...er=asc&start=30

[Allie 0]

From everything I've read about this hand, I agree with a number of people that there is an arguement to be had for both ways to play this hand...neither is really "wrong"....but personally, I happen to agree with Kurt's play. He trapped the guy into calling 13,000 more with the worst hand, at that point. What occurs to me, that I haven't seen mentioned (although I may have missed it)....is that the guy who CALLED Kurt's all in reraise at the turn, holding A9 with that board made a questionable play CALLING that bet....Daniel pointed about that the limpers could have been holding AK, AQ, AA etc....but KURT could have been holding those hands too....the A9 guy had to consider that Kurt maybe already be full at the turn...when Kurt check raises all in this guy has to smell a trap at that point. I'm not sure how much calling 13,000 more meant to the guy's stack....but if I was holding A9, with the board AKQA and was checked raised like that at the turn, I would have to consider laying my hand down (again, depending on how much calling 13,000 would hurt my stack). I like Kurt's play better than the caller's....he got his money in the with the best hand...the other guy CALLED his money off with the worst hand and the river saved him.

[elkang 0]

My comments:Daniel has not added anything new to the discussion except I think he is the first one to outright say that "people limp strong all the time" a view that many (including myself) discounted. It is not a complete argument, but it is enough to make the most vital points that affect the decision. Yes, there are hundreds of factors, but you should check out a book by Gladwell called "Blink" (he also wrote tipping point which is a great book that can describe poker's explosive growth) and it is about how the pros gather all the data but then make their decision based on a few factors. Daneil listed the main points which were all repeated on the prior threads.Thanks very much. Seriously, I said that this was not a poker problem anymore but a people problem. Until someone wants to argue that they know better than Daniel with solid argumentation, evidence or testimony, this issue is really closed - and there should have been a decent consensus before this. Otherwise, examine the situation again and you will see that one choice is a much better one than the other. If you choose to post little snippets of your argument, it is really pointless.

[lizzybobio 0]

Damn proud of ya Kurt. Maybe Daniel can get cardplayer.com to post this hand in their daily Tournament Hand Matchup

[Suited_Up 2]

i'd say the reason it went on so long is that you didn't want to acknowledge the alternative. If you noticed the thread about DN's last hand entitled "What Happened", it wasn't very long at all cause he wasn't on there posting about how he made the right play and all of you who don't agree are flat out wrongOnce DN chimes in about your hand, you deflated!!! :naughty: Dam your stubborn!!! If you would still argue your point even though DN disagreed with you, i would see that you had REAL convictions about how you played and thus would have some respect for the way your "defending" yourself.(you still may have those strong feelings but your keeping them under your hat now)I was also suspecting that you wanted to have one of the longest threads on this site devoted to talkin about you (and not smash for a change)There,.........i said it.....hows your mom?Some of these FCPers know what there talkin about. Listen :shhh: and quit yappin :dance: so much. I saw you call people names also. So don't point your finger at "all" those who disagreed with you as flamers. Some were trying to help you.I'm tryin to see your point of view,.......................................i jus can't get my head that far up my ass!!

First of all, stop being an ass.Secondly... I never said I changed my mind. I am just tired of making all the same points, I have argued it enough, and if you look at the end of the last thread about it, I said that. Only thing new I mentioned in here was something nobody ever brought up about betting out the turn. I still don't think my play was wrong though, and I still think calling is the worst play. And about having a long thread about me.... There was one already before I even got home. It's the one jayson started about the hand the first time around. I never even posted in there... so please save me all the ego crap, I was responding to things people said, and I wish someone would have listened long before it got to 10 pages.If you really want to see convictions... then lets talk about why DN would say all-in with the best hand on my play is wrong, but going all-in, and risking his tournament on a draw is ok? He based it on his read of the person, I did the same, and at least I had a made hand, and the best one at that. So it looks like quite a double standard to me, and I still agree that my play was the right one!