Citizen Erased 0 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 This is the second post I've made about extracting maximum value as I consider it a big leak in my game. I always find myself fearing scaring off the opponent, which I understand is something that is inevitably going to happen.For this hand, Hero and Villain have both been sat at the table for about an hour. Hero's only shown down winning hands, whilst Villain is solid. At the time, I had brief notes on his plays. In coherent language, he was solid; had PFR in MP w/ QQ to 4xBB; committed $10 in total with AQ as top pair, and didn't tend to fear scare cards.Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownCO ($38.05)Button ($34.65)SB ($50.15)BB ($24.75)Hero ($57.95)UTG+1 ($26.70)MP1 ($24.50)MP2 ($18.35)Preflop: Hero is UTG with T, T. Hero calls $0.25, 3 folds, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.85, BB calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50.Flop: ($3.10) 4, 3, T(4 players)SB bets $1.5, BB folds, Hero calls $1.50, CO folds.Turn: ($6.10) 4(2 players)SB bets $3, Hero calls $3.River: ($12.10) 5(2 players)SB bets $5, Hero raises to $15, SB calls $10.Final Pot: $42.10Results in white below: Hero has Td Tc (full house, tens full of fours). SB has Ad Ac (two pair, aces and fours). Outcome: Hero wins $42.10. I expect the main question will be why I just call. My reason for doing so is that with that board, he could easily be scared off and that's the last thing I want.As I like to say when looking for advice, I know I didn't play the hand perfectly. If I felt I did, I wouldn't be posting it.=]EDIT: It seems the converter's done something wrong as the PFR was to .75, not .85. Link to post Share on other sites
rdtedm 0 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 This is the second post I've made about extracting maximum value as I consider it a big leak in my game. I always find myself fearing scaring off the opponent, which I understand is something that is inevitably going to happen.For this hand, Hero and Villain have both been sat at the table for about an hour. Hero's only shown down winning hands, whilst Villain is solid. At the time, I had brief notes on his plays. In coherent language, he was solid; had PFR in MP w/ QQ to 4xBB; committed $10 in total with AQ as top pair, and didn't tend to fear scare cards.Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownCO ($38.05)Button ($34.65)SB ($50.15)BB ($24.75)Hero ($57.95)UTG+1 ($26.70)MP1 ($24.50)MP2 ($18.35)Preflop: Hero is UTG with T, T. Hero calls $0.25, 3 folds, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.85, BB calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50.Flop: ($3.10) 4, 3, T(4 players)SB bets $1.5, BB folds, Hero calls $1.50, CO folds.Turn: ($6.10) 4(2 players)SB bets $3, Hero calls $3.River: ($12.10) 5(2 players)SB bets $5, Hero raises to $15, SB calls $10.Final Pot: $42.10Results in white below: Hero has Td Tc (full house, tens full of fours). SB has Ad Ac (two pair, aces and fours). Outcome: Hero wins $42.10. I expect the main question will be why I just call. My reason for doing so is that with that board, he could easily be scared off and that's the last thing I want.As I like to say when looking for advice, I know I didn't play the hand perfectly. If I felt I did, I wouldn't be posting it.=]Looks pretty good to me. I would maybe try raising the turn, but then he might not bet into you on the river. However, if you do raise the turn I think a good portion of the time he'll see it as you having just a ten and trying to see if it's good. If you raise the turn, he'll probably C/C most any pot-sized bet you'll throw at him on the river, and you might make more money that way. Either works. Link to post Share on other sites
Recks 0 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 I wouldn't normally limp UTG with this hand but it turned out to be a good play here as the other guy woke up with aces and you didn't have a re-raise situation, other than that I think you played the hand very well and made a good value bet on the river Link to post Share on other sites
Cappy37 0 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 A+.Well played. If you knew he had exactly AA, you may have been able to get it all in on the flop, or on the turn, but weighing in that he could have just as easily had AK or JJ or something along those lines, the line you played was spot on for extracting good value from various holdings. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 I expect the main question will be why I just call. My reason for doing so is that with that board, he could easily be scared off and that's the last thing I want. As I like to say when looking for advice, I know I didn't play the hand perfectly. If I felt I did, I wouldn't be posting it.=]I think we need to be adding value to this pot as soon as we flop top set. With AA, villain is coming along for almost any ride ... I min-raise his flop bet, and raise him again on the turn. This gets him pot committed for an all in on the river. If we don't start squirrelling his chips into the pot early, he might shake off the hook. And I disagree that there's anything to be scared of on this board with AA. He probably thinks he's stacking QQ or KK along the way here and is anxious to get it in. Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 I love the way you played it and I love flopping sets in position against pf raisers. Link to post Share on other sites
Ricer98 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I think you played this hand too passive. When you say he was solid I'll assume thats tight aggressive? When a solid player makes a small raise from the SB, knowing he is going to out of position the rest of the hand, he is usually going to have a big hand there. Just look at his raise, 2 people limp, and he makes it $0.75. That raise doesn't look like its designed to fold anyone. It looks alot more like he wants action. AK might, but probably doesn't make this play. More likely AK tries to fold a couple of you and get the pot heads up, not price everyone in laying atleast 3-1 odds. That leaves pretty much only big pairs as his range.Putting this guy on a big pair, I definetly make a small raise on the flop. If he has an overpair he is very likely to put in a 3rd bet. However if you simply call the flop and raise the turn he has much more reason to be suspicious on such a dry board. Now, if you would take this line and get 3 bet, just call. You are both deep enough a solid player should be able to get away from just an over pair for 200bb's on a dry board. So, we don't want him folding to what would basically have to be push if we elected to 4 bet. I could go either way on the turn, either call or raise if bet into again. I think this line allows us to get the most money into the pot. Even if he just calls the flop bet, or 3 bet checks the turn, we still have position and can make 1/2-2/3 pot value bets. Link to post Share on other sites
Ricer98 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Looks pretty good to me. I would maybe try raising the turn, but then he might not bet into you on the river. However, if you do raise the turn I think a good portion of the time he'll see it as you having just a ten and trying to see if it's good. If you raise the turn, he'll probably C/C most any pot-sized bet you'll throw at him on the river, and you might make more money that way. Either works.Why would a 10 call a bet on the flop, making the pot larger, then raise the turn to "find out where its at". That'd be a horrible line to take with top pair in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
coremiller 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Way, way too passive. You should have stacked him here. At 25NL people play AA like it's the nuts, especially on dry boards like this. On the flop, you should he assume he has AA-JJ and raise. If he has those hands he'll pay you off almost every time, especially if it's aces or kings. If he has anything but an overpair he probably missed the flop and you make no money from him anyway. Try to figure out how to get him all-in as quickly as possible. Since you're both 200bb deep that means building the pot, and fast, and you do that by betting and raising. Link to post Share on other sites
danc1984 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I do not like the hand. Raise preflop, raise the flop, raise the turn, push the river. Get max value for your hand. Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Way, way too passive. You should have stacked him here. At 25NL people play AA like it's the nuts, especially on dry boards like this. On the flop, you should he assume he has AA-JJ and raise. If he has those hands he'll pay you off almost every time, especially if it's aces or kings. If he has anything but an overpair he probably missed the flop and you make no money from him anyway. Try to figure out how to get him all-in as quickly as possible. Since you're both 200bb deep that means building the pot, and fast, and you do that by betting and raising.Thank you. I'm not sure why everyone loves this hand. OP flopped a set so he should want to get as much money in as possible. If our opponent has unpaired hole cards then we're not going to extract much more value out of him. We want to get as much value from overpairs as possible and this only happens from raising.Oh, and raise this pf every time. It makes stacking an overpair much easier - not only is the pot larger but villain's more likely to put you on QQ-KK instead of 33. Link to post Share on other sites
Cappy37 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 So let me get this straight... Getting into re-raising wars from UTG PF with TT, and firing hard on every street is how we make money in the long run in a low stakes cash game?I think a lot of you are way too in love with the fact that he flopped a set, turned top boat and was up against aces. If we didn't have results ahead of time, the line he chose is spot on.Remember, Villian can just as often have 10x, 77, 88, 99, AK, AQ, or whatever here. For every time we "stack aces", we scare the hell out of weaker holding and don't get *any* value for our set.The guy kept the pot managable when he was way behind, and got good value every street he was ahead, keeping in mind how impossibly strong he was on each and every street. I *guess* we can make the argument for raising the flop, but then we lose Big Aces, mid pairs, and potentially even something as strong as JJ or QQ if they sniff out that you arent particularly a mover or shaker.We *cannot* raise that turn. We scare off the draw that we *will* stack if a spade or straight card comes on the river. Maxing Value is about getting the most out of each situation. If this is live, and the villain is bouncing around like a drunken cheerleader and mouthing "I GOT IT" to Dan Shak, then yeah, put 'em on aces and get it all in on the flop. But we scare off so many other hands by raising that flop hard, I'm not sure we come out ahead in profit in the long haul. Disclaimer: I'm a tourney guy, do we really fire top set this hard on all streets and get into re-raising wars PF with TT? Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Some things here i like, but i would raise the flop.make it look like JJ or A,10.. why would you just smooth call with any of these?you should be able to take mych more than 20 bucks off a player at this level when they hold aces. Link to post Share on other sites
StupidKid 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Anyone like donkbetting the flop? Leading with sets is hugely profitable for me atm at 25Nl Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 So let me get this straight... Getting into re-raising wars from UTG PF with TT, and firing hard on every street is how we make money in the long run in a low stakes cash game?I think a lot of you are way too in love with the fact that he flopped a set, turned top boat and was up against aces. If we didn't have results ahead of time, the line he chose is spot on.Remember, Villian can just as often have 10x, 77, 88, 99, AK, AQ, or whatever here. For every time we "stack aces", we scare the hell out of weaker holding and don't get *any* value for our set.The guy kept the pot managable when he was way behind, and got good value every street he was ahead, keeping in mind how impossibly strong he was on each and every street. I *guess* we can make the argument for raising the flop, but then we lose Big Aces, mid pairs, and potentially even something as strong as JJ or QQ if they sniff out that you arent particularly a mover or shaker.We *cannot* raise that turn. We scare off the draw that we *will* stack if a spade or straight card comes on the river. Maxing Value is about getting the most out of each situation. If this is live, and the villain is bouncing around like a drunken cheerleader and mouthing "I GOT IT" to Dan Shak, then yeah, put 'em on aces and get it all in on the flop. But we scare off so many other hands by raising that flop hard, I'm not sure we come out ahead in profit in the long haul. Disclaimer: I'm a tourney guy, do we really fire top set this hard on all streets and get into re-raising wars PF with TT?What's this talk of "reraising wars"? We raise from UTG, which is a standard play, and then re-evaluate villain's 3-bet depending on a variety of factors: how much the raise is, how many callers there are, how deep villain is, villain's image, etc. Being 3-bet happens. Preflop's not what's really important here, though.I agree that we cannot raise the turn - that's why we raise the flop.We should be more interested in extracting value from overpairs than big aces and mid pairs. Tell me, how much more value are we going to get from AK during this hand, even if an ace or king hits? How about 77? The answer is probably not much. Once we check on the turn then villain probably checks through. What do you mean we don't get "any value" from these hands? By going for the check-raise we've gotten all of the value we can get out of them because villain continuation bet. Now we should be focused on making money against overpairs, and that's why we raise the flop. I'll tell you right now that in a low stakes cash game you are not getting folds from JJ+ here - it'll happen but only rarely. Especially since we're out of position, because we run the risk of this hand checking through on the turn, therefore reducing our chances to build a big pot.Remember, you should focus on extracting value from second-best hands, not garbage hands that will only pump money into the pot through bluffs and generally stupid play. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 So let me get this straight... Getting into re-raising wars from UTG PF with TT, and firing hard on every street is how we make money in the long run in a low stakes cash game?I think a lot of you are way too in love with the fact that he flopped a set, turned top boat and was up against aces. If we didn't have results ahead of time, the line he chose is spot on.Remember, Villian can just as often have 10x, 77, 88, 99, AK, AQ, or whatever here. For every time we "stack aces", we scare the hell out of weaker holding and don't get *any* value for our set.The guy kept the pot managable when he was way behind, and got good value every street he was ahead, keeping in mind how impossibly strong he was on each and every street. I *guess* we can make the argument for raising the flop, but then we lose Big Aces, mid pairs, and potentially even something as strong as JJ or QQ if they sniff out that you arent particularly a mover or shaker.We *cannot* raise that turn. We scare off the draw that we *will* stack if a spade or straight card comes on the river. Maxing Value is about getting the most out of each situation. If this is live, and the villain is bouncing around like a drunken cheerleader and mouthing "I GOT IT" to Dan Shak, then yeah, put 'em on aces and get it all in on the flop. But we scare off so many other hands by raising that flop hard, I'm not sure we come out ahead in profit in the long haul. Disclaimer: I'm a tourney guy, do we really fire top set this hard on all streets and get into re-raising wars PF with TT?Reraising war preflop with TT would be bad, i'd still say it's a raise most of the time though.The bolded part is where I think the tournament player in you might be coming out. In cash games (especially OOP) there's much more firing at the flop and just giving up if you've missed than in tournaments where players seem to try to get "more creative" and fire three streets UI because the "tournament equity" in the pot is too significant to just give up on. 77,88,99, AK, etc. are done with this hand OOP on the flop most of the time. So calling behind never make more money on this hand unless villian catches up on the turn with AK. JJ-AA are going to have a hard time folding especially at this level. (Good players at this level will play AA like the nuts because there are other players that will play A10 like the nuts here). We should be adding money into the pot now as we are unlikely to get more chips by calling against hands that can't call us anyway and we are going to make more money against the hands that would be continuing anyway at the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
No_Neck 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I think if you are going to play the hand like this you need to stick a bigger raise in on the river. Maybe full pot, other than that the hand looks great. Link to post Share on other sites
KramitDaToad 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Anyone like donkbetting the flop? Leading with sets is hugely profitable for me atm at 25NlDonkbetting with position is a new concept I am unfamiliar with. Please explain. Link to post Share on other sites
StupidKid 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Donkbetting with position is a new concept I am unfamiliar with. Please explain. Lol i jus saw UTG and assumed I think. I'm a donk. Link to post Share on other sites
dms26 3 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I like the flat call on the flop, on the turn I'm sure some will say you should raise a little to build a pot. It allows you to get more value on the river, and overpairs will pay you off most of the time. If he doesn't have a big hand he's not going to bet the river anyway. I would raise the turn to about $10, the 4 shouldn't scare him much and may get him to 3 bet.As played raise more on the river, at this point you have to put him on TPTK probably at the very least. Raise it 15-20 more on top of his bet and you'll still getting called by AA most of the time. Link to post Share on other sites
dms26 3 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 So let me get this straight... Getting into re-raising wars from UTG PF with TT, and firing hard on every street is how we make money in the long run in a low stakes cash game?I think a lot of you are way too in love with the fact that he flopped a set, turned top boat and was up against aces. If we didn't have results ahead of time, the line he chose is spot on.This is why OP shouldn't include results, why would you shovel a flop with top set on a safe board? Link to post Share on other sites
coremiller 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 This is why OP shouldn't include results, why would you shovel a flop with top set on a safe board?You're right that the OP shouldn't have included results, but who was talking about shoving the flop? Most people said to raise the flop, not push, which is a big difference. Although shoving is actually not that bad here at 25NL, because even with a push you'll still get called a lot by overpairs. Link to post Share on other sites
dms26 3 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 You're right that the OP shouldn't have included results, but who was talking about shoving the flop? Most people said to raise the flop, not push, which is a big difference. Although shoving is actually not that bad here at 25NL, because even with a push you'll still get called a lot by overpairs.ok shovel was the wrong word.but why not give him a chance to fire again with AK or a pocket pair on the turn? Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 ok shovel was the wrong word.but why not give him a chance to fire again with AK or a pocket pair on the turn?We're both 2 buy-ins deep. We're not trying to pick off an extra c-bet, we're trying to stack him when he has a big hand as in......A = x% of the time he has an overpair times his remaining stack $$$$ B= y% of the time he has AK/underpair * z% of the time he doesn't actually just give up (which i think is fairly high) * another bluff $$$$$. (You can throw in when he catches up with AK too)A>Bthrow in extra complexity that it's easier for AA this deep to get away from the hand when we raise the turn out of nowhere. I'm very suprised at how many people like this hand. I saw this hand and immediately thought it was standard awful regardless of the title. Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I want to raise the flop unless I think he'll two-barrel with overcards often. Our prospects for extracting more money don't necessarily go up on later streets, either. Suppose he has say JJ-KK and then an ace hits. Link to post Share on other sites
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