Ok, So I Caved Already.

[bdc30 0]

Jonesing for some plo, get on one table, third hand this happensFull Tilt PokerPot Limit Omaha Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.506 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $53UTG+1: $50CO: $46.35Button: $33.45Hero: $51.20BB: $13.80Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with A 7 4 K 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.Flop: 8 7 4 ($2, 4 players)Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets $2, Button calls, Hero raises to $10, BB folds, CO raises to $36, Button folds, Hero raises all-in $50.7, ???Suicidal? Smart? Get the $ in now?

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Suicidal? Smart? Get the $ in now?No. No. No. Go figure.

[bdc30 0]

Wow, thanks for that advice. Ran a hypothetical calculation on twodimes...Assuming naked straight without redraws...http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2975693pokenum -o ac 7c 4d ks - 5h 6d 2h 3s -- 8c 4c 7d Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 8c 4c 7dcards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVKs Ac 7c 4d 446 54.39 370 45.12 4 0.49 0.5463s 6d 5h 2h 370 45.12 446 54.39 4 0.49 0.454

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Do you understand the concept of cash game? Do you know that you should in general put money in when you have a much bigger edge when playing cash game? Do you know there were still 3 players in the pot when you raised to $10? How much redraw do you have? How much were you sure about your pot equity? Do you want to maximize your winnings and minimize your losings? Don't you want more money in when you are chasing behind? The point of playing out of position sucks is when your chase failed you lose a lot of money, and when you chased it you don't get paid much most of the time. Now when you put your money all in sure you have your pot equity and fe, but why not do it when you have 70% instead of 55%? Yeah when it's a tourney I have no problem doing that. But when it's in the cash game you always ask how do you max. your winnings and min. your losings. That's why most of the posters here are losers, posters suck, including me.

[bdc30 0]

Uhh, ok...Are you the second coming of smasharoo or what?

No. No. No. Go figure.

What exactly is one supposed to take from that? Instead of being condescending and asking rhetorical "Theory of Poker" type questions, how about throwing out a suggestion as to how I should proceed on the hand I posted, and explain the thought process you used to draw that conclusion? That would be much more constructive than either of your first two posts.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Ok, to make it really simple, just call or fold, it really depends. But if you can't try to understand the general concepts, the fundations of poker, you better quit.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Also if you can figure out a way to get all other 3 players to put all their money in then that's fine (again, the easier way to do that requires you in position). That really depends. But when it's just one-on-one then it's not really a solid cash game poker.

[bdc30 0]

I also don't get your point about preferring to get in with a 55/45 type hand in a tournament instead of a cash game. Lets assume for a second that we "know" that even though we're behind, our draw has a statistical edge over the made hand, even if only marginally. To my way of thinking, I'd much rather get all in with a 55/45 every time in a cash game, where if I lose, I can rebuy - whereas I may not take the same chance in a tournament since if I lose, I'm out of the tournament.

But if you can't try to understand the general concepts, the fundations of poker, you better quit.

You can stop being a dickhead any time here too. Not like there's only one way to play this game. That's what makes it great.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Here's why I will do in trny and why I won't do in cash game.In trny, it involves more luck than skill especially for those short-stacked online tournies. You don't have the luxury to wait for a premium hand on the fast-going blinds structure. My goal is to win and I need to accumulate chips. Win-big-or-go-home. When I determine that I have an edge then I have no problem to shove. In tournament I am more willing to gamble.Now talk about this hand in tourny, I can assume I have a bigger edge in tourny than it's in cash game because players are more willing to gamble and chase with inferior hands. All in all, your hand against the average hands you definitely have a bigger edge than it’s in cash game.Now in cash game, you are making some fundamental mistakes. 1, you are assuming the best of yourself and ignoring how many players are in the pot. 2, you over-estimate your bottom two, and hence you over-estimate your pot equity. 3, when you are behind and chasing, you forget the general idea about getting as much money in as possible when you are behind so that when you hit your chase, you make a bigger win. You can’t assume your bottom-two is good. You need to think that you only have 9 outs and that’s it. How do you know CO have 2356 with no redraw? How do you know no one has 88xx something like that? Do you know that even your bottom two is good they can be easily counterfeited? How do you know that someone else is not holding two clubs which will reduce your outs and hence, why don’t you let them come along and draw to dead? Why don’t you let the straight draws (something like 9Txx) to come along? Yes if you have something like 88Ax or A9TJ with nut flush draw then by all mean get it in. Or else you should slow down to save your losing and maximize your winnings, or you just end up getting frustrated, complaining your draws couldn’t get there, and keep losing money.This is my last response and I really didn't wanna post this, why tab the glass? But with your personalities, you can learn 99 hands but you still don't know how to play the 100th hand and lose them all, then you will forget how to play those 99 hands again. You are posting just for the sake of posting and arguing for the sake of arguing.

[simo_8ball 0]

You do pretty well against his range (slightly wrong side of a coinflip), so getting allin isn't a mistake. CO will have 56 about 90% of the time here.You have very little implied odds.You have very little fold equity with the checkraise (IMO).You never have a real edge if you get it allin on the flop, so it's going to be pretty neutral in that respect. You're never going to get a big pot where you are really ahead.You're better just check/calling the flop with 3/1 odds and hoping to win a midsized pot if you hit.

[simo_8ball 0]

Do you understand the concept of cash game? Do you know that you should in general put money in when you have a much bigger edge when playing cash game?

No, you should put your money in when you have ANY edge at all. Do YOU understand the concept of cash games?

3, when you are behind and chasing, you forget the general idea about getting as much money in as possible when you are behind so that when you hit your chase, you make a bigger win.

Please explain. Either I'm reading it wrong or you're saying your aim is to get your money in behind so the pot is bigger when you hit. If so, you're wrong.

You can’t assume your bottom-two is good. You need to think that you only have 9 outs and that’s it.

Are you serious? You're saying our bottom two is worthless. That's totally wrong, for very obvious reasons.

1/ How do you know CO have 2356 with no redraw? 2/ How do you know no one has 88xx something like that? 3/ Do you know that even your bottom two is good they can be easily counterfeited? 4/ How do you know that someone else is not holding two clubs which will reduce your outs5/ and hence, why don’t you let them come along and draw to dead? Why don’t you let the straight draws (something like 9Txx) to come along?

1/ We don't know he has 2356. It's just useful to know that against the straight we are a favourite. We can work from there.2/ We don't know noone has 88xx. Someone could have 5c6c88. All we can do is look at our equity against various ranges.3/ The point isn't that our two pair might be good. It's nearly impossible that it is. It does mean that we have more outs than just a flush draw though.4/ It's random distribution. If we know someone has two clubs then that would affect our equity slightly, but we don't know that. We can speculate that on average one out will be dead, or something like that.5/ Finally, something actually useful. This is correct. The more opponents we have when holding a nut draw, the better our odds, and in general the more powerful our hand becomes.

This is my last response and I really didn't wanna post this, why tab the glass? But with your personalities, you can learn 99 hands but you still don't know how to play the 100th hand and lose them all, then you will forget how to play those 99 hands again. You are posting just for the sake of posting and arguing for the sake of arguing.

Wow. You're a real asshole, aren't you? Or is it supposed to be constructive criticism?I honestly don't get why you suddenly appeared from nowhere and felt the need to throw around a load of insults and criticisms.

[BudBundy 0]

He used to be a good poster here. I don't understand why he suddenly decided to be an *******.**********Flat call flop. If you hit a Full House on turn , still be cautious. Most of the time top set will lead that flop as well.

[GeneralGeeWhiz 0]

Fold preflop PLEASE!

[bdc30 0]

With a suited ace from the sb? No thanks.

[iggymcfly 0]

Pretty much everything jackingoff said was wrong. If you try to wait for a 70/30 edge before you put your money in playing PLO, you might as well just transfer your money to your opponents before the game starts and save yourself some time. 55/45 is great. As for the actual play of the hand, I think that bet/3-betting's better than C/Ring since you don't let trash hands outdraw you and you don't have to deal with playing OOP if your raise is flat-called, but getting it in on the flop is definitely better than trying to play the turn OOP when there are no cards you can fold to and your opponent can fold when you hit.

[bdc30 0]

Full Tilt PokerPot Limit Omaha Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.506 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $53UTG+1: $50CO: $46.35Button: $33.45Hero: $51.20BB: $13.80Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with A 7 4 K 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.Flop: 8 7 4 ($2, 4 players)Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets $2, Button calls, Hero raises to $10, BB folds, CO raises to $36, Button folds, Hero raises all-in $50.7, CO calls all-in $11.85.Uncalled bets: $2.85 returned to Hero. Turn: 3 ($53.85, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $99.7)River: 6 ($53.85, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $99.7)Results:Final pot: $99.70CO showed 5s 6c Jd QsHero showed Ac 7c 4d Ks

[bdc30 0]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2984870pokenum -o qs jd 6c 5s - ac ks 7c 4d -- 8c 7d 4c Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 8c 4c 7dcards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVQs 5s 6c Jd 396 48.29 418 50.98 6 0.73 0.487Ks Ac 7c 4d 418 50.98 396 48.29 6 0.73 0.513

[simo_8ball 0]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2984870pokenum -o qs jd 6c 5s - ac ks 7c 4d -- 8c 7d 4c Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 8c 4c 7dcards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVQs 5s 6c Jd 396 48.29 418 50.98 6 0.73 0.487Ks Ac 7c 4d 418 50.98 396 48.29 6 0.73 0.513

Best possible scenario.I just think that beause you're playing a $99 pot with $51 equity. That's not including rake. Overall you're breakeven by getting it allin on the flop. You may be gaining a few cents and something in metagame.If you call the flop getting 3:1 and extract a little value if you hit I think you gain more.

[bdc30 0]

Not sure how it would have worked out on this specific hand, as I doubt the naked straight pays off the obvious flush, but "meta-wise" I've learned from SOME of the posts in this thread.....lol (guess which ones I'm not referring to)

[silkyjonson 1]

flat call on the flop to keep the pot small, in a limped pot your probably up against a straight, even worse in your spot a set which takes away your outs, so really I dont like raising in this spot call and re-evaluate turn.