simo_8ball 0 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Oh, and another thing is that 200nl regs will balance their ranges and handread better than 50nl regs. This is generally going to be more of a fold at 50nl than at 200nl. Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 I think people are giving regs too little credit here, if you play at such and such a limit and are a winning player and you think about their UTG range, other winners at your level do the same thing. I also think the bad regs fold too much to pressure esp from regs because there is so much easy money to pick up from complete morons that they don't want to lose big pots to regs. Also the lower the limits, the less often pots get big because everyone plays so passive, so playing big pots gets everyone out of their comfort zone so quickly. I think lower limits are MORE conducive to bluffing regs with 3 barrels. rest of the post is fine, but this I don't agree with. Lower limit players call by default. It's their thing. If you browse 2+2 (even up to 100nl), you'll see most of the posters, many decent/winning regs, do not consider position when 3-barreling. Reg at =<50nl means a multitabling HUDBot. I would NEVER at 25nl or even 50nl try a bluff and figure it'll work x% of the time because villain will assign me a range. If I'd expect a reg to do anything it'd be to polarize my range, somewhat subconsciously or maybe even consciously, and call me on the assumption that I have air/monster. I'd expect a bluff to work because the board's scary, or whatever, but definitely not because he's reasoning like this, "His UTG range is strong, so he must have a big hand here, fold." In theory it MIGHT make more sense to barrel at the lower limits, but it doesn't work out like that. Just like I can theorize about how 200/400 plays or should play, based upon observation and analysis, but whatever I say has to wear a giant asterisk because I don't play those limits. FWIW I'd say that theoretically it doesn't make as much sense, because we're dealing with a player pool which more or less doesn't possess advanced hand-reading and range-assignment skills. What's interesting about poker is that, due to the proliferation of strategic materials, there's a gap of varying size between what one experiences and what one learns. An example where this materializes is in the river check-raise. We learn from forums what lines "make sense." We post hands, critics come in to tell us our line is nonsensical, and from this we begin to conclude what's considered a credible line. Posters of various skills and backgrounds chime in, and we learn about the game from their perspectives. However, when we experience a river checkraise at 25nl, it is almost never a bluff. It doesn't matter that the line makes no sense - only a very specific player type is going to checkraise on the river. But we'll want to apply what we've learned, or we'll try to do so unconsciously, when the whole time it doesn't make sense to do so. And we'll call and lose to a deceptive fullhouse or flopped straight. My point with that point is that many regs, even winning ones, don't really understand what they're applying, or even what they're reading about, and it cannot be expected that they will think rationally at the poker table. Range-assignment is one such skill. At 200nl, I'm sure you're right - I know some very good players at those limits, as you do too, because it's right about the time "good money" starts to come in. So you can end up with excellent players who for one reason or another aren't rushing to move up. In a way this argument's kind of pointless because there's no way for either one of us to categorize the regs at the lower limits and those at the higher limits. But in my experience the 10/25/50nl regs aren't nearly as advanced or cerebral as their 2+2 accounts would suggest they are. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 I disagree with most of your post :)Not only do I coach people that play $25nl and $50nl, I played $50nl 10 months ago. I think I'm very in tune with how $50nl plays, both from not being too far removed and from talking to people that play it a lot. Basically I completely disagree with the idea that regs will call 3barrel bets at $50nl more often than they will at $200nl because they don't hand read deeply enough. Their shortcomings in hand reading may exist but their experience as players has always been 3 big bets in a row is a hand bigger than 1 pair. Not only is that their thought process it's a correct thought process. You can exploit that.Just for more evidence that $200nl regs are more likely to call Simo (he's crazy, a $200nl player, and I wouldn't attempt to move him off top pair) would call here. 4 Regs from 4bb at smaller stakes would fold here. It's not like I cherry picked responses, I grabbed every response and just reposted them. Am I that lucky that they came to that conclusion? Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Quoting 4bb doesn't prove anything as it is small sample size (good, thinking, winning players, when we're talking about generic regulars), and because my whole point is that players say all sorts of things on forums that they don't practice on the tables online.Even still I'll concede that you're probably right, overall, if for no other reason than the fact that you were able to crush 50nl and move up eventually to 200nl. It's very likely that you were able to exploit weaknesses that I hadn't even noticed were there. One seems to be 3-barreling spots... Link to post Share on other sites
simo_8ball 0 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 my whole point is that players say all sorts of things on forums that they don't practice on the tables online.When it comes to PLO, this is massively true. I post PLO advice from probably around a 25/20 viewpoint and I actually play around 40/30.I also wouldn't generally make a post advising someone to isolate a fish with T6s from UTG+1 and then stack off for >200bb on an AKQ84 flush board. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Quoting 4bb doesn't prove anything as it is small sample size (good, thinking, winning players, when we're talking about generic regulars), and because my whole point is that players say all sorts of things on forums that they don't practice on the tables online.Even still I'll concede that you're probably right, overall, if for no other reason than the fact that you were able to crush 50nl and move up eventually to 200nl. It's very likely that you were able to exploit weaknesses that I hadn't even noticed were there. One seems to be 3-barreling spots...FWIW I didn't correlate what you meant by the forum thing. And I crushed $50nl by not doing those things, but that's why my learning curve was much longer to beat $200nl and even $100nl. But I think had I done those things then, I would have had a more developed game instead of just a crutch of a style that worked and not knowing why it worked or how to adapt when it stops working.Raising light from CO/button, cbetting only good boards, and raising donk bets from weak players, isn't enough at some levels, and it's all I really needed at $50nl to beat it for w/e I beat it at, prob something like 5-7BB. But I did that by understanding where my money came from, the fish, and staying out of regs ways. Which is why I think it's so powerful to 3barrel at regs, they don't want to play big pots with good players for the most part. Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 I'm actually going to back tystero on this one.Firing the third barrel at $50NL and under is lighting money on fire. The only hands you're moving off are the occasional draws that are played passively.What you normally see, like in the AJ hand posted, is the person will let the time tick down, down, down, down, and then eventually sigh, "knowing they're beat cuz the forums and books say so" and call. This is why their winrates are ass and they don't move up quick enough.Once you are called to the turn at $50NL and under it is very rare that you will move a player off of a hand unless an extremely scary card comes on the river that makes a shitton of sense for you to have. I.E. a card that completes 4 to a straight and 3 to a flush. If the player isn't folding on an A high board by the turn it's safe to say they feel their kicker is high enough to get to showdown at the minimum, and are likely holding something that they know they should fast play but are scared you are good enough to get away from your hand.This is why AK hitting tp/tk is still worth 3 streets of value betting at $50NLTo address the people you've asked at 4bb, i'd ask them to post some HH where they actually made the "correct" fold. I'd be extremely amazed to see even 5 examples.I just think at lower limits it's really really bad to try to move people off hands unless they have a history of floating you, in which case that allows the second barrel and only the second barrel. Link to post Share on other sites
babylondonks 5 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I agree completely with Tskillz. Given I've put in a lot of hands at 50nl this month it's safe to say that most regs love to fold, I do too sometimes. People always just go "people are idiots you have to play simple". But regs often play quite decently in some spots, they often don't know why, but they do the right thing. People just don't call with TP over three streets anymore, you just can't get that value unless you're in a very very good spot against a very very bad (or tilted) reg. I'm about to start a session, but I'll go through my database and find some 3 barrel spots if I can. I'm not a very frequent barreler but I'd argue that it would work very well at 50nl and to some extent at 25nl. For funsies I 4 tabled 25nl for a few hundred hands last night playing 55/48 or something and it was like printing money, sweet sweet non-showdown red line money. Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Simo, what do you do in these spots? $5plo In both hands, Hero is in the SB6max, and they're both within the first 10 hands of play1. Hero is dealt [ A A J 6 ]effective 100 BBsCO raises potHero reraises potFlop [ Q 8 3 ](25bbs)Hero bets 18bbsVillain calls 18bbsTurn [ Q 8 3 ] [ Q ](61 bbs)Hero? Villain has 70 bbs left2.Hero is dealt [ A 6 6 5 ]Villain opens to potMP callsHero callsFlop [ 8 6 3 ](11.5bbs)Hero bets 11 bbsVillain callsMP foldsTurn [ 8 6 3 ] [ T ](33.5 bbs)Hero bets 20 bbsVillain calls 20 bbsRiver [ 8 6 3 ] [ T ] [ 2 ](73.5 bbs)Hero checksVillain bets 50 bbsHero calls?Hero is also lost on the turn Link to post Share on other sites
simo_8ball 0 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Sigh @ the PLO low content thread being replaced by BAW. FWIW I did see your last post in there, but it's put pressure on me to make my response worthwhile.1st hand, horrible turn card, but I probably bet/call. There are enough non-Qxxx hands in his range to make it worth shoving.2nd hand, I pot the turn and call a shove. At $25pl+ I'd really like your bet (at $5pl a pot bet will get called down very light - any FD or straight draw or two pair).As for the river, it's very read dependent. I think against an unknown I'd probably c/f because I don't think there are too many hands a random player will bet, but it's really difficult to say. I actually think your best line might be to bet 20bb and fold to a raise. Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I'll post follow ups in PLO LC Link to post Share on other sites
simo_8ball 0 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Depressing graph. Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Ran well back there in October Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 For funsies I 4 tabled 25nl for a few hundred hands last night playing 55/48 or something and it was like printing money, sweet sweet non-showdown red line money.Graph or it didn't happen Link to post Share on other sites
KingJames 11 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 What is a good general strategy for this BB situation situation? Bet/fold flop? check/call? Then what about the turn:feral_cow:v1.07Milked from the teat of a feral cowFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.02/$0.05 - 9 playersCO ChulioZ: $10.21 Button blackdoor: $5.00 SB jajju: $0.90 BB Hero: $5.50 UTG Brookln300: $5.00 UTG+1 wrestling1389: $1.06 MP EAChef: $2.54 MP2 dtowndestroyer: $5.88 HJ mauboge: $2.61 Preflop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with (9 players)Brookln300 folds, wrestling1389 calls $0.05, EAChef folds, dtowndestroyer calls $0.05, mauboge folds, ChulioZ calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero checksFlop: ($0.22) (4 players)Hero checks, wrestling1389 checks, dtowndestroyer checks, ChulioZ checksTurn: ($0.22) (4 players) Link to post Share on other sites
babylondonks 5 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Graph or it didn't happenI can't be bothered finding it and filtering it right now for just 25nl but I might do another session later on like that, heh. Wp with the QQ today too, I really misplayed JT there What is a good general strategy for this BB situation situation? Bet/fold flop? check/call? Then what about the turn:feral_cow:v1.07Milked from the teat of a feral cowFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.02/$0.05 - 9 playersCO ChulioZ: $10.21 Button blackdoor: $5.00 SB jajju: $0.90 BB Hero: $5.50 UTG Brookln300: $5.00 UTG+1 wrestling1389: $1.06 MP EAChef: $2.54 MP2 dtowndestroyer: $5.88 HJ mauboge: $2.61 Preflop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with (9 players)Brookln300 folds, wrestling1389 calls $0.05, EAChef folds, dtowndestroyer calls $0.05, mauboge folds, ChulioZ calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero checksFlop: ($0.22) (4 players)Hero checks, wrestling1389 checks, dtowndestroyer checks, ChulioZ checksTurn: ($0.22) (4 players) I lead flop there, as played I'm leading turn Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 For what it's worth, this is why (or at least part of why) I wouldn't call a raise pre-flop in that hypothetical spot with AJs. Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 What is a good general strategy for this BB situation situation? Bet/fold flop? check/call? Then what about the turn:feral_cow:v1.07Milked from the teat of a feral cowFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.02/$0.05 - 9 playersCO ChulioZ: $10.21 Button blackdoor: $5.00 SB jajju: $0.90 BB Hero: $5.50 UTG Brookln300: $5.00 UTG+1 wrestling1389: $1.06 MP EAChef: $2.54 MP2 dtowndestroyer: $5.88 HJ mauboge: $2.61 Preflop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with (9 players)Brookln300 folds, wrestling1389 calls $0.05, EAChef folds, dtowndestroyer calls $0.05, mauboge folds, ChulioZ calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero checksFlop: ($0.22) (4 players)Hero checks, wrestling1389 checks, dtowndestroyer checks, ChulioZ checksTurn: ($0.22) (4 players) As Baby said, I lead flop there about 95% of the time. I will generally be willing to fold to a raise without a read. If I didn't bet the turn and it checked through, I'd bet the turn.I'm a big proponent of leading out with a wide variety from the blinds in limped pots. Essentially, it's a very rare spot for me to c/r or c/c. Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I can't be bothered finding it and filtering it right now for just 25nl but I might do another session later on like that, heh. Wp with the QQ today too, I really misplayed JT there Well between you and Tskillz I had actually decided to try a gear switch that session... ran 30/28/3.3 and got all kinds of red line mobnies... would have had some blue line if AA holds against nines... and a couple flips... and a couple AKs running into AA, w/eI actually successfully 4 bet bluffed for the first 2 times in my life as well it was pretty sweet.As far as the JT hand I don't think it was a horrible line given my image. I do think you should lead the river there. My perceived range consists of mostly pocket pairs and the only two hands you should be worrying about are QQ and AJ (maybe a floated KQ). The rest of it you're going to pick up another bet from TT, 99, 88, J9, 87 etc that would check it back. When you C-C that river you can pretty much be assured you're beat except when I hold AT and couldn't pull the trigger on the turn praying for a gutterball.Also, now that I know your handle I will avoid your tables accordingly Link to post Share on other sites
babylondonks 5 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Well between you and Tskillz I had actually decided to try a gear switch that session... ran 30/28/3.3 and got all kinds of red line mobnies... would have had some blue line if AA holds against nines... and a couple flips... and a couple AKs running into AA, w/eI actually successfully 4 bet bluffed for the first 2 times in my life as well it was pretty sweet.As far as the JT hand I don't think it was a horrible line given my image. I do think you should lead the river there. My perceived range consists of mostly pocket pairs and the only two hands you should be worrying about are QQ and AJ (maybe a floated KQ). The rest of it you're going to pick up another bet from TT, 99, 88, J9, 87 etc that would check it back. When you C-C that river you can pretty much be assured you're beat except when I hold AT and couldn't pull the trigger on the turn praying for a gutterball.Also, now that I know your handle I will avoid your tables accordinglyI think given how scary that board turned out I don't think you call a bet on the river with much that I beat, and you should definitely be bluffing that river sometimes, maybe even turning made hands into bluffs on such a scary board because a call with JT there is probably marginal because you do have a lot of value in your range. Link to post Share on other sites
babylondonks 5 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I had to run earlier, but I'd like to qualify and say that instead of avoiding me you'd be much more successful sitting to my left! Link to post Share on other sites
droberts 3 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 i love how u are running so well and crushing a couple tables then u get coolered and it ruins everythingi was trying out 10NL for the first time and was up 250BBs in the first 15 minutes across 4 tables..then a maniac at the table wakes up with AA vs my AKs got all in on a K high flop with the nut flush draw... fmlbut gonna keep at it because of fish like this.Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 294407The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterMP2: $10.00CO: $19.95BTN: $9.25Hero (SB): $9.65BB: $11.10UTG: $4.80UTG+1: $11.50UTG+2: $8.35MP1: $11.25Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with A A :diamond:UTG calls $0.10, 3 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.30, 1 foldFlop: ($1.00) 5 K 6 (2 players)Hero bets $0.50, UTG calls $0.50Turn: ($2.00) 8 (2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $1, Hero raises to $3.90, UTG calls $2.90 all inRiver: ($9.80) 9 (2 players - 1 is all in)Final Pot: $9.80Hero shows A A (a pair of Aces)UTG shows J 4 (high card King)Hero wins $9.35(Rake: $0.45)the old limp UTG with J4 suited... lovin' it. Link to post Share on other sites
KingJames 11 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Use auto-top-offRaise more preflop. 3xbb plus 1bb for each limper is always a good strat.Bet more on the flop. 2/3-full pot.Villain has a 48bb stack to start the hand, we're never going to be getting rid of our aces here. The key is to get as much in as soon as possible as that is when AA is at its biggest advantage, pre-flop and on the flop.* (Harrington on cash)When we raise to .50 preflop he has 4.30 behind and the pot is $1.20Then we bet $1 on the flop, he has 3.3 behind and the pot is 3.2Beautiful pot-sized shove on the turn.Profit.ps I don't hate how you played it, but definitely bet more for value. If he's calling .50, he's calling .70, etc. Don't worry about, zomg if I bet too much he'll fold. If they have nothing they're going to fold. If they have something, get as much value as you can. Link to post Share on other sites
KingJames 11 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Also, congrats on moving up to 10nl and I hope you run like pre Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 If you've just become rolled for a limit I really don't recommend playing with 200BB+ effective stacks Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now