S/f Draw Against Flop Shove

[linkwood 0]

The villian and I have tangled in a few pots now. Not sure, but I think that he is gunning for a me bit. He raises my blind almost every time, calls me down light, and reraises my PFRs frequently. Overall I would say he's TAG, but he has been raising a lot more recently, especially against my blind. We haven't gotten to a lot of show downs, so I don't have a ton of information on what hands he's doing this with. The only show downs I can remember are one hand when I called him on the flop and river on a 10 10 3 10 k board and we chopped it with aq, and one where i called his raise in the bb with 5 6 , led at a 3 q 9 flop, turned a flush and bet, he called, checked the river (mistake on my part) and he showed a9o. So he sees me as a LAG. I also know that he has a tendency to overplay hands that used to be big in marginal spots (like sets on boards with 4 to a straight). On this hand, when he three bets me the minimum this is unusual. His reraises are usually pot sized, and I have usually folded to those, so I'm assuming he has a hand that he wants action on this time. Probably a big pair, maybe ak. I call with good odds and position. On the flop his bet is normal sized. I raise with my big draw, hoping to freeze him with one pair hands. If he has a set of kings though I'm going to get shoved on, and he also might shove with aces, perhaps ak as well. Is raising here bad? After the shove, assuming my math is right, this is a standard call right?Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.10/$0.255 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $25.45CO: $25Hero: $31.45SB: $48.40BB: $2.50Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with A 4 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, SB raises to $1.25, BB folds, Hero calls.Flop: 2 5 K ($2.75, 2 players)SB bets $2, Hero raises to $8.3, SB raises all-in $47.15, Hero calls??

[rdtedm 0]

First of all, kill him for minraising. I also dislike raising the flop, because we want to keep the pot small until we have a made hand. Now we've got an awesome draw, but a terrible bet to call and draw at it. We're most certainly behind if our outs brick, so why not c/c until we get a card we need? It's all about pot control. Here, we're probably only drastically behind a set of kings. I'm sure AK is in his range, so we might have 12, at most, clean outs (9 flush cards+3 additional straight cards). Do you like to gamble?

[Scott3705 0]

First of all, kill him for minraising. I also dislike raising the flop, because we want to keep the pot small until we have a made hand. Now we've got an awesome draw, but a terrible bet to call and draw at it. We're most certainly behind if our outs brick, so why not c/c until we get a card we need? It's all about pot control. Here, we're probably only drastically behind a set of kings. I'm sure AK is in his range, so we might have 12, at most, clean outs (9 flush cards+3 additional straight cards). Do you like to gamble?

BoooooooRaise the flop, fold Ax unimproved, 88, 99 and the like. Call the raise and teach him a lesson for min raising and giving you odds to call off here.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Is raising here bad? After the shove, assuming my math is right, this is a standard call right?

Yes, I don't much care for the flop raise ... villain has Khxh. He was going to push any heart for us anyway. Now we have to draw to one of 12 outs from behind or fold a draw at the nuts.

[Scott3705 0]

Yes, I don't much care for the flop raise ... villain has Khxh. He was going to push any heart for us anyway. Now we have to draw to one of 12 outs from behind or fold a draw at the nuts.

booooooooo

[No_Neck 0]

I also know that he has a tendency to overplay hands that used to be big in marginal spots (like sets on boards with 4 to a straight).

I am not sure if this is a reason to shovel or if this is a reason to play it slower.... I would push because I don't want to brick on the turn and be forced to fold against a big bet.

[mtdesmoines 3]

booooooooo

LOL, what's with the "boos" ???

[Scott3705 0]

LOL, what's with the "boos" ???

boooooWhere are we trying to pick up small pots if not here?boooo

[mtdesmoines 3]

boooooWhere are we trying to pick up small pots if not here?boooo

Target is money, not pots.

[Scott3705 0]

Target is money, not pots.

There's money in pots.

[rdtedm 0]

There's money in pots.

I think the point is that we'd rather have a made hand when the money goes in, than be drawing and hoping. Why raise when we don't have that yet? We either want to make our flush/straight and get paid off, or fold if it doesn't look like it's going to get there. I flat call here and re-evaluate the turn.

[Scott3705 0]

I think the point is that we'd rather have a made hand when the money goes in, than be drawing and hoping. Why raise when we don't have that yet? We either want to make our flush/straight and get paid off, or fold if it doesn't look like it's going to get there. I flat call here and re-evaluate the turn.

My point is that there's money in the pot with a raise and a reraise preflop. Villian doesn't have AA, AK and KK here all the time. Pick up the money in the pot. You're never priced out of calling this hand, you can pick up the pot a lot. If you're called you can check and take a free river UI or bet again if you've caught good and now sneak in an extra bet since you're never folding the turn against a reasonable bet. I'm not raising looking to call off on a huge overbet reraise, i'm just looking to pick up the pot.

[rdtedm 0]

My point is that there's money in the pot with a raise and a reraise preflop. Villian doesn't have AA, AK and KK here all the time. Pick up the money in the pot. You're never priced out of calling this hand, you can pick up the pot a lot. If you're called you can check and take a free river UI or bet again if you've caught good and now sneak in an extra bet since you're never folding the turn against a reasonable bet. I'm not raising looking to call off on a huge overbet reraise, i'm just looking to pick up the pot.

This isn't a hand that you want to end now. It's a hand where you want to see the next one or two cards and get paid off big if you catch. We want to pick up the pot right here with a hand like TP, or a bluff. Our hand isn't a bluff or top pair. We WANT to see, at least, the next card before we can no longer make decisions.

[Scott3705 0]

This isn't a hand that you want to end now. It's a hand where you want to see the next one or two cards and get paid off big if you catch. We want to pick up the pot right here with a hand like TP, or a bluff. Our hand isn't a bluff or top pair. We WANT to see, at least, the next card before we can no longer make decisions.

Disagree. I want to end every hand now unless I have the nuts. When I make villian give up his equity in the pot, that's a good thing. You only have 3 sneaky outs here, so you can't rely on implied odds. Who says he's staking off with TP and who says he's got as good as TP? Just because if you stack him you had the right implied odds doesn't mean that you have infinite implied odds here. Why is he losing his mind and giving you his chips if a heart comes? Again he doesn't have AK tied or beat here all the time either. A bet here folds a ton here. Anything less than AK, if it continues, probably calls in which case we get extra bets when we catch up and a free card when we don't. (yes, i just used a limit concept.)

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

booooooooo

Agreed. One over + Gutshot + Flushdraw..Yeah.. I'm folding this virtually never.

[krup24 0]

i don't get why everyone but a few hates the raise, i love it, i'm not folding this ever either

[Lavitz 0]

You're both over 100BB deep. Call flop, you have massive implied odds and he will give up and check/fold turn a lot. Or get it all in now. Either works but his tendency to overplay hands means we probably have little fold equity and if we call and hit our gutshot or flush we can win a massive pot.

[danc1984 0]

This hand plays itself after that flop IMO. I play it the exact same way and think that any other way is horrible in this spot.