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Flush Draws With A Straight On The Board


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You're awfully hostile.You can't know what the math is. All you know is that there's a bet and a raise to you and the guy behind you is holding the nuts AND YOU KNOW IT. He's gonna raise. He may shove all in cause there are a lot of draws out there. He may think he's getting tricky and just flat call. You don't know. If you do call though, he's almost always raising and then you're gonna have to stick in all of your chips with a naked flush draw. If you knew the guy behind you was gonna play too, then you'd have an easy decision.The fact is that you messed up by not reraising preflop and ending the hand right there.
This is actually what I was needing to hear.And I'm not trying to be hostile but if someone comes at me with a remark I see as snippy then I usually snip back. If it was not snippy then I will apologize scott for taking it that way.I really do appreciate this forum and the people here because for the most part I am just a donk trying to get better.
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I find this funny because in another thread here is what you said
True, but if you see their cards and they raised with a weak hand and can't stand a reraise, then I'm still gonna say that it's always correct to raise them there and end the hand before they can catch a good flop. If you raise everytime that you see they raised with garbage, then you just get free money. That's all I'm saying.Nice catch though :club:
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True, but if you see their cards and they raised with a weak hand and can't stand a reraise, then I'm still gonna say that it's always correct to raise them there and end the hand before they can catch a good flop. If you raise everytime that you see they raised with garbage, then you just get free money. That's all I'm saying.Nice catch though :club:
I see your point.and yes i liked the catch too just happened to be reading that other thread on flush draws B)
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This is actually what I was needing to hear.And I'm not trying to be hostile but if someone comes at me with a remark I see as snippy then I usually snip back. If it was not snippy then I will apologize scott for taking it that way.I really do appreciate this forum and the people here because for the most part I am just a donk trying to get better.
Moved to Strat forum was just because I see you post in general and never saw a post of yours in here, and how much does it help your "strategic" approach to the game analyzing a hand where you see a nut hand? Plus, the whole topic just really degenerated into something retarded.For the math part....
Okay since allegedly all you have to do is the math then let's see i have 9 outs with 31 cards in the deck so roughly a 1:3 chance to win. there is $40 in the pot with $10 bet it makes the pot $50 now it is raised to $25 which makes the pot $75, the BB folds and now I need to decide. Well $25 x 3 = $75 so i have the right odds to call. Now i call and the guy with the straight raises to $75. now the pot is $175, now the CO folds and I have $50 to win $175. Now I have to go all in cause if i'm gonna chase i know he is going to bet the turn. Is that the correct math?I was only trying to figure out if it was +EV it to call that $25 bet with a person acting behind me who I know has a straight...but if that's too uncomplex for you then i'll just drop it.
The math: Well, first off, you don't have the right odds to call a naked flush draw for one pull if you think villian is cold calling. (But that doesn't matter cause he's not.) So if you call, you're playing for stacks and risking $130 to win $155. You're 1.5:1 against him. Maybe if CO does have a hand (and isn't making a move like you say) he calls with a set and you're risking $130 to win $255 or so and you've got 30% equity in the pot. The problem with math above is that first rationalization(which is not correct) sticks you to the next and the next. The decision is play for stacks or not.
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I'm still completely baffled by the whole"I saw his cards and I know I have him totally dominated and that he can't call a reraise preflop, so isntead of reraising and taking the risk-free dead money, I decide to slowplay him and take a flop where he flops the nuts on me and now I'm asking if it's correct to try and outdraw him" thing.This play is really awful. The few times where I have caught a glimpse of someone's cards it's always correct to reraise them if they will just fold. It's free money.
thank you, I knew you'd agree.
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Thinking "out loud" - So the pot is 75, 25 more to you. If you call that puts the pot at 100, and you have 105 left. If MP2 shoves it will put the pot at 220 with 105 to call. You're 2 - 1 against making your hand, so you're getting the right price to chase.This of course assumes that the CO folds. If he calls the all in you're likely against a set or two pair, which puts you at about a 3 - 1 dog in the hand. But the pot will be 325 (your pot that is) and 105 to call, so again, you're getting the right price. So I would say that you should call, hope the MP2 is an idiot and slowplays his hand so you can draw cheaply. Likely though you're getting it all in here.
Ok, maybe I'm an idiot or something, but people seen to be coming up with math different than mine. From what I see, if the villian pushes its a call because we're getting the right price. Am I wrong in this?
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Moved to Strat forum was just because I see you post in general and never saw a post of yours in here, and how much does it help your "strategic" approach to the game analyzing a hand where you see a nut hand? Plus, the whole topic just really degenerated into something retarded.
Yes I usually post in general but I usually read in the strat section because like I said I am stilla donk just trying to get better. in this situation I am mainly asking based on future boards when I have my FD and there is a board with a 3 card straight on it and if I have a strong feeling they have a straight (ie raise then reraise) do i have the correct odds to call.
For the math part....The math: Well, first off, you don't have the right odds to call a naked flush draw for one pull if you think villian is cold calling. (But that doesn't matter cause he's not.) So if you call, you're playing for stacks and risking $130 to win $155. You're 1.5:1 against him. Maybe if CO does have a hand (and isn't making a move like you say) he calls with a set and you're risking $130 to win $255 or so and you've got 30% equity in the pot. The problem with math above is that first rationalization(which is not correct) sticks you to the next and the next. The decision is play for stacks or not.
So basically at that point I have to decide if it is worth it to risk the rest of my stack on a 3:1 draw. Since it is not a +EV situation then I should let it go?
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Yes I usually post in general but I usually read in the strat section because like I said I am stilla donk just trying to get better. in this situation I am mainly asking based on future boards when I have my FD and there is a board with a 3 card straight on it and if I have a strong feeling they have a straight (ie raise then reraise) do i have the correct odds to call.So basically at that point I have to decide if it is worth it to risk the rest of my stack on a 3:1 draw. Since it is not a +EV situation then I should let it go?
Am i on the wrong street, because I'd swear you're 2:1 to get there and your equity is higher than that when you consider you've got non-heart outs to a chop. You're equity in this pot is probably closer to 1.5:1. There's not $195 sitting out there unless second villian you put on a move is coming along for some reason.
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Am i on the wrong street, because I'd swear you're 2:1 to get there and your equity is higher than that when you consider you've got non-heart outs to a chop. You're equity in this pot is probably closer to 1.5:1. There's not $195 sitting out there unless second villian you put on a move is coming along for some reason.
If I re-raise all in second villain is probably going away.So I would be shoving $130 into a $75 pot knowing that the straight is going to call so basically $130 to win $335 which is a little over 2.5:1 to win and I have 1.5:1 equity?and PS I still am unsure how i have 1.5:1 equity
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If I re-raise all in second villain is probably going away.So I would be shoving $130 into a $75 pot knowing that the straight is going to call so basically $130 to win $335 which is a little over 2.5:1 to win and I have 1.5:1 equity?
IF you were going to play it, you would call, watch V1 reraise and hope that V2 comes along and gives you odds to draw. You would never push into this pot. You push draws for FE (zero in this hand), you call draws to let more people in the pot to improve odds. Pot $30 preflop: If you get it all in in isolation against V1, there's $185 in the pot.($30 +130 from V1 + $25 from V2). How did you come up with $335? remember not to include your money... that's not part of the pot. If we thought V2 was coming along it's a call. If we thought V2 was not coming along, it's a fold.
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IF you were going to play it, you would call, watch V1 reraise and hope that V2 comes along and gives you odds to draw. You would never push into this pot. You push draws for FE (zero in this hand), you call draws to let more people in the pot to improve odds. Pot $30 preflop: If you get it all in in isolation against V1, there's $185 in the pot.($30 +130 from V1 + $25 from V2). How did you come up with $335? remember not to include your money... that's not part of the pot. If we thought V2 was coming along it's a call. If we thought V2 was not coming along, it's a fold.
Okay so NO push. Then $40 preflop (BB called as well) then it gets back to us $25 to call for $75 pot at this point call,the straight guy raises me another $50 and the V2 calls now there is a $50 call for a $200 pot so I have 4:1 odds which is over and above so now I can call and hope to god I see another heart!
I don't know, I could be wrong.Edit: Since I'm not sophisticated enough for stove. http://twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b=4c+5h...h+8h%0D%0A7d+8dI thought I was going crazy there for a minute.
Okay so the 1.5:1 makes sense now!
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Okay so NO push. Then $40 preflop (BB called as well) then it gets back to us $25 to call for $75 pot at this point call,the straight guy raises me another $50 and the V2 calls now there is a $50 call for a $200 pot so I have 4:1 odds which is over and above so now I can call and hope to god I see another heart!
See I think this description complicates things.... you call, he's pushing and V2 is either coming along or he's not. if he does, you should have called, if he doesn't, (perfectly hair line) but I think you should fold. You're never folding if you call, so you really should think of it in terms of I'm either putting all my chips in the first time it gets back to you or you're not. (Not in the pushing sense, more in the sense that you're committed if you call.) missed the BB which makes that pot $195, which gives you 1.5:1 and you are exactly 1.5:1.
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See I think this description complicates things.... you call, he's pushing and V2 is either coming along or he's not. if he does, you should have called, if he doesn't, (perfectly hair line) but I think you should fold. You're never folding if you call, so you really should think of it in terms of I'm either putting all my chips in the first time it gets back to you or you're not. (Not in the pushing sense, more in the sense that you're committed if you call.) missed the BB which makes that pot $195, which gives you 1.5:1 and you are exactly 1.5:1.
Interesting, so basically at that point we are at an even money standpoint where we should probably just fold as it is not going to make us money in the long run unless V2 calls which with a call and then re-raise I can't see him stayin in...but stranger things have happened!
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Okay so cool, then I win $40 woo hoo, I would rather play out the hand. You know see the flop see what develops maybe win more money...but that's just me. Apparently we have different styles so you pick up all the pots you want pre-flop with A8s and I'll keep to my style and not overvalue a hand such as A8s.
I can say with great confidence that I cannot do better than winning $30 outright by playing even reasonably competent players after the flop in this situation. Forget our cards and the raiser's cards for a second. A player in good position raises and then two players flat call. Unless they're being Very Tricky, the callers don't have big hands. It's a spot to consider a squeeze, taking into consideration our own reputation and the others' styles. But on top of that we have this bonus information. We know that we have the raiser crushed. We know where one of the aces is. There are only 3 combinations of AA instead of 6 possible. If we were playing in a deeper game, then taking a flop starts to look more appealing.
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If the kid has a good enough hand to push with, then we profit by calling. If he folds, then we're about break-even. So it seems to me that we should call the flop. We're not cleaning up, though, since he's the shorter stack. We're really just getting back our share of the dead preflop money.

Board: 4h 5h 6sDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 32.704%  30.35% 02.36% 			  6029 		  468.00   { Ah8h }Hand 1: 44.128%  38.12% 06.01% 			  7573 		 1193.50   { 8c7c }Hand 2: 23.168%  19.29% 03.87% 			  3833 		  769.50   { 77-44, 87s, 75s+, 64s+ }

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