question

[SplashMaster 0]

there are times to limp with AK. but this is a CLEAR raise. your on the button, you want the blinds out, and you give yourself a shot for a 4 card flop. enough for me.

That being said, Can you help us define the times when it is appropriate to limp with A-Ko which I think is the gist of the question?Whether it is appropriate in the original post is somewhat immataerial to the discussion at this point. My question is at what point is it appropriate?

in the small blind or big blind in loose low limit gamesif there sre 5 or more limpersdo you want to raise now?out of position?are you going to get the blinds out? no, your giving the blinds an excuse to come in with very marginal hands, when they know the limpers will HARDLY EVER fold once they are in (in low limit)you want to bet the flop into 7 players, out of position, after you raised, when the flop is Jack high?or you want to check and fold now that you wasted a big bet?any more questions smart guy

[SplashMaster 0]

just re-read your postat first I thought you were flaming meI think I was wrong, so I will rtract the "smartguy" remark

[Speedy Petey 0]

even in that situation with lots of limpers before you, raise with AK. Its NOT A DRAWING HAND like some people want you to believe. its simple, if you miss the flop and it gets checked to you, check to and get a free card. You have an equity edge PF so you should push it. Make the pot big and reap the rewards each and everytime you win

AK is a drawing hand. First 30 or 40 pages of SSHE. Is Sklansky wrong?

[Fooney 0]

Splash,Thanks for the apology as I am being sincere.I'm still interested to know if anyone knows where the threshold is or can refer to any source where this is discussed in detail?I couldn't discern anything from your post (as I think you were being flippant because you thought I was being the same), but do you know of any book or article where the math regarding this is discussed?

[Shocktastik 0]

This is a great discussion going on here. While I don't have any threshold numbers or a magic number of limpers at which point raising becomes less profitable than calling, I do have a link to a great article by Mike Caro discussing a similar concept in depth.http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/caro06.htmUnderstanding The Nature Of Poker By Playing Against Everyone In the World - Part 1It's kind of a mind trip at first but the concepts are great and will help you get a perspective on this subject.Shock

[wrto4556 0]

This is really being debated?????Raise AK preflop. I'm ashamed....

[SplashMaster 0]

This is really being debated?????Raise AK preflop. I'm ashamed....

even out of the sb with 6 limpers?tell me what this accomplishes?I respect your views wrto, so elaborate

[Uppie_ 0]

here is why i think it is wrong not to raise even with six limpers, first of with six limpers chances are pretty damn good you got the best at the time and well putting more money into the pot with the best hand seems pretty darn good to me. second it gives you power for the rest of the hand to drive people off and get free cards in order to make the best hand. You may have to display some good skills later on in the pot but that is poker. sure there all going to call preflop so your pot went up from 3.50 to 7 dollars by you risking only .50 cents xtra with the best hand so you are making them pay for limping in with to many hands and over the long run you will come out further ahead. and Agressiveness is a good thing in poker because you have to love fold equity, you are getting an extra small bet out of 3 or 4 people that are going to be gone when the flop misses them. but i say make them pay make them pay make them pay.

[SplashMaster 0]

here is why i think it is wrong not to raise even with six limpers, first of with six limpers chances are pretty damn good you got the best at the time and well putting more money into the pot with the best hand seems pretty darn good to me. second it gives you power for the rest of the hand to drive people off and get free cards in order to make the best hand. You may have to display some good skills later on in the pot but that is poker. sure there all going to call preflop so your pot went up from 3.50 to 7 dollars by you risking only .50 cents xtra with the best hand so you are making them pay for limping in with to many hands and over the long run you will come out further ahead. and Agressiveness is a good thing in poker because you have to love fold equity, you are getting an extra small bet out of 3 or 4 people that are going to be gone when the flop misses them. but i say make them pay make them pay make them pay.

good luck "outplaying" 1-2 limit holdem players.you keep firing into the J 8 5 flop so the guy with 89 calls you down and says "see I knew he had AK"Im not saying never raise out of position with AK, I am saying to mix it up with the hand (AQ also)

[wrto4556 0]

You raise for the same reason you raise a flush draw in a multiway pot.Equity. You are winning 30% of the time and only putting in 18% of the money. That's a great equity edge that you should exploit by raising. Raising also gives you control and fold equity. Basically, you are building the pot when you have a superior hand. Limping gives up an equity edge (loss of extra money), gives you no control of the pot, and removes all, if any, fold equity.

[SplashMaster 0]

You raise for the same reason you raise a flush draw in a multiway pot.Equity. You are winning 30% of the time and only putting in 18% of the money. That's a great equity edge that you should exploit by raising. Raising also gives you control and fold equity. Basically, you are building the pot when you have a superior hand. Limping gives up an equity edge (loss of extra money), gives you no control of the pot, and removes all, if any, fold equity.

are you factoring in extra bets you gain from limping when the flop is A q 6 and are paid the whole way by QJyou also gain deceptionagain, Im not saying i limp all the time, but I vary my play with AK and AQ alot (out of position)

[Uppie_ 0]

your right the guy with 89 is going to hang around and sure i lose one pot to him and 2.50(1 dollar pre flop .50cents on the flop and 1dollar on the turn and fold the river if i miss cause some one out of six calle me down with a pair or maybe even check call the river and pay him 3.50 just for the read) but the next time the flop come K 8 2 and he pays me off i win a pot of 10 dollars cause i made those other clowns pay me pre flop there for i am a plus three Big bets. i really think it is more then worth it to put in the extra small bet pre flop to have a good chance at winning three extra big bets in total. or the other sitution is i have big pocket pair and he seen me play AK like that and pays me off too where if i limp with AK and play it like a chicken, when i do pick up a big pair i dont' get paid off cause he pickes up on that i only raise with big pocket pairs out of postion and the calls my bet pre flop and if he doesn't flop a monster or a monster draw folds and i win nothing, part of limit poker is sometimes putting in extra little bets so you can get extra big bets called when or even raised when you have it. i mean obviouly when the flop comes jack high that isn't good for your hand but they don't know if you got AK or AJ or QQ, they may be hoping you have AK, and yeah i would raise with AJ in the same spot. I guess i just think flat calling with AK in this postion is playing not to lose poker instead of playing to win poker.

[SplashMaster 0]

your right the guy with 89 is going to hang around and sure i lose one pot to him and 2.50(1 dollar pre flop .50cents on the flop and 1dollar on the turn and fold the river if i miss cause some one out of six calle me down with a pair or maybe even check call the river and pay him 3.50 just for the read) but the next time the flop come K 8 2 and he pays me off i win a pot of 10 dollars cause i made those other clowns pay me pre flop there for i am a plus three Big bets. i really think it is more then worth it to put in the extra small bet pre flop to have a good chance at winning three extra big bets in total. or the other sitution is i have big pocket pair and he seen me play AK like that and pays me off too where if i limp with AK and play it like a chicken, when i do pick up a big pair i dont' get paid off cause he pickes up on that i only raise with big pocket pairs out of postion and the calls my bet pre flop and if he doesn't flop a monster or a monster draw folds and i win nothing, part of limit poker is sometimes putting in extra little bets so you can get extra big bets called when or even raised when you have it. i mean obviouly when the flop comes jack high that isn't good for your hand but they don't know if you got AK or AJ or QQ, they may be hoping you have AK, and yeah i would raise with AJ in the same spot. I guess i just think flat calling with AK in this postion is playing not to lose poker instead of playing to win poker.

yep :roll:

[wrto4556 0]

You raise for the same reason you raise a flush draw in a multiway pot.Equity. You are winning 30% of the time and only putting in 18% of the money. That's a great equity edge that you should exploit by raising. Raising also gives you control and fold equity. Basically, you are building the pot when you have a superior hand. Limping gives up an equity edge (loss of extra money), gives you no control of the pot, and removes all, if any, fold equity.

are you factoring in extra bets you gain from limping when the flop is A q 6 and are paid the whole way by QJyou also gain deceptionagain, Im not saying i limp all the time, but I vary my play with AK and AQ alot (out of position)

The money you make by exploiting your equity edge preflop outweighs any form of decepton. Plus, QJ is calling all the way down whether you raised preflop or not in most 1/2 games.

[Uppie_ 0]

well i agree completly with wrto and will have to agree to to disagree with you splash master

[SplashMaster 0]

I have not played 1-2 in 10 years. but you are probably right QJ will call down with or without a raise.dont get me wrong, if there are 2 -3 limpers and I'm the sb, you best believe im popping it with AK5-7 limpers, I'll raise maybe 20% of the time depending on game variables and players and such.

[SplashMaster 0]

well i agree completly with wrto and will have to agree to to disagree with you splash master

thats niceyou made a friend :wink:

[wrto4556 0]

5-7 limpers, I'll raise maybe 20% of the time depending on game variables and players and such.

You're giving up too much money by not raising, bro. Too many people are limping with trash hands and you need to punish them with your nut no pair hand.

[wrto4556 0]

I was saving this for your next reply, but I guess you're convinced?The J82 board you shouldn't be losing alot of money on. You raise preflop wich makes you money, you bet the flop, and if you're called in too many places you can easily check/fold the turn unimproved. If only one person calls you only have to get him to fold 1 in ten times to show a profit. easy bet. Check/fold river UI.