Fancy Play Syndrome?

[malfunktron 0]

Sorry in advance for not knowing how to set up a hand-history thing. Tournament: Atlantic City, Showboat: $65Blinds: 400/800 no anteStack: 8700I'm in the BB. 2 early position limpers with around 30K stacks, 2 middle position limpers with around 20K stacks, 1 limper on the button with 6100. Reads: for the most part everyone is playing pretty tight/straight forward poker and button has limped LOTS of hands. From my perspective, limping hands have typically been suited connectors, small pairs, A-10s and below, KQ, KJ, etc. After I see that everyone has limped I decide I'm making a move to try to steal the "dead money" regardless of my cards. I look down at 9-4 off, take a second to survey how many people are in the pot and make it 4000. Everyone folds to the button who goes all in for $6100. I'm forced to call and he has KJ. Is this play simply retarded? I really thought someone with KJ would fold their hand as I would make that same raise with that many limpers with AK, AQ, 1010, JJ, QQ, KK, or AA. I was slightly worried someone would call with a mid pocket pair, but I was going to push on the flop for 4700 no matter what and hope they didnt connect. Does this play have any equity or am I a retard? Thanks for the replies.

[monix 0]

Pushing into 5 limpers is highly call dependant as it is likely that at least one of them will call. IMO the only hope you had was to push your entire stack (you were putting in almost half of it anyway). Raising to 4000 offered almost 2:1 odds, and if you had an early position caller it was likely you'd get more than 1...

[simo_8ball 0]

Shovel. Don't get cute with a small raise.I like the move if you think you have fold equity over a wide range of the limping hands.

[SamC489 0]

I think this is just a huge donk move. FPS is fancy playing a hand (as the acronym states). You just shoved (more or less) into 5 limpers in a LIVE $65 tourney. Low buy in live tourney players will call you with kj or q 10 soooted here all day, so you are basically shoving a shitty hand where you have no fold equity. Terrible, although it would work online.

[simo_8ball 0]

I think this is just a huge donk move. FPS is fancy playing a hand (as the acronym states). You just shoved (more or less) into 5 limpers in a LIVE $65 tourney. Low buy in live tourney players will call you with kj or q 10 soooted here all day, so you are basically shoving a shitty hand where you have no fold equity. Terrible, although it would work online.

We are shoving 8100 and there's $4k in the middle. If we get called every time by one player we need ~40% equity to break even. We are probably about 30% on average.It's probably fairly close, depending on what range will fold/call. With a *slightly* better hand I'd really like the move.

[malfunktron 0]

I think this is just a huge donk move. FPS is fancy playing a hand (as the acronym states). You just shoved (more or less) into 5 limpers in a LIVE $65 tourney. Low buy in live tourney players will call you with kj or q 10 soooted here all day, so you are basically shoving a shitty hand where you have no fold equity. Terrible, although it would work online.

I cant say I completely disagree with you. So its a terrible move b/c of the type of tournament Im playing in? Given the opponent's call you are probably correct but I had played at this table for 2 hours and there really wasnt any crazy hands being shown down to raises. The players were exceptionally tight and straight forward for a low buy-in live tourney and I had a pretty tight image. Im sure if I posted the hand as the person with the KJ, the majority of people on the forum would of folded but who knows...Any other thoughts? My reason for not pushing was I thought if they would call $4000 they would call $8000. And if they just called $4000, Id be able to push on the flop and possibly be able to get them to fold here. General consensus here for the play: Go all in...Check and see what happens...?

[themainevent 0]

its possible you got levelled and the guy with KJ knew you were pushin weak

[Young Turk 0]

According to your description of a tight, solid table KJ should have folded in that spot - so I guess it's a decent move. I personally, however, would be afraid of someone limping with a monster in early position hoping for a position raise...furthermore I try and give myself leverage whenever I pull a move; suited connectors or low pockets would have made more sense for that kind of raise than the abysmally disconnected 94. It's not that bad, however - you're still probably about a 2-1 dog.

[DM_FLOPPEDIT 0]

u need 2 push 4 sure i like the move and kj should fold all day

[monix 0]

Hey...to all the responders - he did not shove, he raised to 4000.IMO - Push is better than a Fold, and WAYYYY better than a raise for half his stack...

[whatgreatis 0]

Sorry in advance for not knowing how to set up a hand-history thing. Tournament: Atlantic City, Showboat: $65Blinds: 400/800 no anteStack: 8700I'm in the BB. 2 early position limpers with around 30K stacks, 2 middle position limpers with around 20K stacks, 1 limper on the button with 6100. Reads: for the most part everyone is playing pretty tight/straight forward poker and button has limped LOTS of hands. From my perspective, limping hands have typically been suited connectors, small pairs, A-10s and below, KQ, KJ, etc. After I see that everyone has limped I decide I'm making a move to try to steal the "dead money" regardless of my cards. I look down at 9-4 off, take a second to survey how many people are in the pot and make it 4000. Everyone folds to the button who goes all in for $6100. I'm forced to call and he has KJ. Is this play simply retarded? I really thought someone with KJ would fold their hand as I would make that same raise with that many limpers with AK, AQ, 1010, JJ, QQ, KK, or AA. I was slightly worried someone would call with a mid pocket pair, but I was going to push on the flop for 4700 no matter what and hope they didnt connect. Does this play have any equity or am I a retard? Thanks for the replies.

I like the play but I would have just pushed all in and not the 4,000 raise. I also would have liked to have a little better hand as mentioned earlier like a pocketpair, suited connectors or something similier. Also was the player with KJ observant enough to know you're tight image or not? If you're oppanants arent paying attention to how you're playing (which was tight) than it takes away from the move but overall I think it was a fine play besides the 4,000 raise.

[Gallo 1]

I like the play but I would have just pushed all in and not the 4,000 raise. I also would have liked to have a little better hand as mentioned earlier like a pocketpair, suited connectors or something similier. Also was the player with KJ observant enough to know you're tight image or not? If you're oppanants arent paying attention to how you're playing (which was tight) than it takes away from the move but overall I think it was a fine play besides the 4,000 raise.

I agree with all that said that you should've just shoved instead of raising. Raising with your stack looks more like a steal attempt, it doesn't seem that you want to really put your stack in the middle. I think if you push here then KJ will more than likely fold in this spot. I'm thinking that Villain probably read the raise that way and pushed.

[sabes99 0]

if you're going to make the play, you MUST shove...you have <11 BB in your stack and there are 5 limpers, do not try to make little raises and offer good pot odds...put them to a decision for their tournament life, or just check and see the flop

[Shaffer 0]

I like the play in a general sense, though I agree that a shove is better. Depends on the table - if it's truly TAG, and particularly if you're approaching the bubble, this move pays off more often than it kills you, I think. Even getting action from Mr. JK, while obviously not what you were hoping for, isn't quite an unmitigated disaster; combine your fold equity with your good chance of live cards and I think you're all right here, so long as you don't make the move too often.Didn't Harrington make a move very similar to this at one of his Main Event FT's?

[Gallo 1]

I like the play in a general sense, though I agree that a shove is better. Depends on the table - if it's truly TAG, and particularly if you're approaching the bubble, this move pays off more often than it kills you, I think. Even getting action from Mr. JK, while obviously not what you were hoping for, isn't quite an unmitigated disaster; combine your fold equity with your good chance of live cards and I think you're all right here, so long as you don't make the move too often.Didn't Harrington make a move very similar to this at one of his Main Event FT's?

I think he shoveled.

[malfunktron 0]

Thanks for the replies and input guys. Looks like a shove seems to be the general consensus if one were to make a move. Do people think given my cards I should of picked a better spot and just checked and seen a flop? Are there any hands that people think a raise rather than a push is optimal? What do you do with AA in that spot?

[whatgreatis 0]

Thanks for the replies and input guys. Looks like a shove seems to be the general consensus if one were to make a move. Do people think given my cards I should of picked a better spot and just checked and seen a flop? Are there any hands that people think a raise rather than a push is optimal? What do you do with AA in that spot?

With any big hand such as AA KK QQ JJ I make a little larger than standard raise (I only want one caller) and it goes in on the flop no matter what since you'll be first to act in the BB. If i had a hand like AQ AJ KQ I just push all in, I dont want a caller and just want to pick up the blinds and limpers. Your cards really didnt matter in that spot, 49os or 45h, obv you'd prefer the 45h but thats not a bad situation to make a play. Like mentioned before the only thing different is a push rather than just a raise. You werent that bad off against KJ anyway since they'd fold most of the time and you had two live cards.

[Shaffer 0]

Thanks for the replies and input guys. Looks like a shove seems to be the general consensus if one were to make a move. Do people think given my cards I should of picked a better spot and just checked and seen a flop? Are there any hands that people think a raise rather than a push is optimal? What do you do with AA in that spot?

This is a purely tactical decision and I wouldn't say that there's a "right" play here - certainly nothing is wrong with checking and seeing a flop (probably check-folding unless you hit something big), but every once in a while, my opinion is that nothing is wrong with shoving here, either. Mix it up; I think that a lot of people would agree that being capable of this move, even with rags, is good to have in your repertoire. When you should make use of it is read-dependant and situational.I also think it's pretty standard that if you're sitting on 11BB and facing 5 limpers, if you're going to raise, you need to shove. This applies to aces as much as it applies to rags; if you make a smaller raise, you might induce a call more frequently, but the money gained there is probably more than made up for with the number of people you will scare off a flop they miss, but who would have called your all-in.With AA here, I shove 100% of the time. The pot is nice and big enough to win right here, without worrying too much about future action. If there's only 1 or 2 limpers, maybe a lesser raise is in order. You will still get called some, and too many callers here with too small a raise is actually a very bad thing.

[ObeyTheDog 0]

Simple answer: Your opponents most likely did have enough to fold, especially the uy with only 6k or so. He's not putting in 800 and then folding. Yes, he's a moron, but that's even MORE reason to not try a move on this pot. I make moves on pots with players who have poker brains and who think about the hands and odds and equity and all that. I want them to talk themself into a fold. A player who has 6k and puts in 800 isn't going to talk himself into a fold, he's going to call, so you have virtually no fold equity in this hand, which means you're playing 9-4os for pure pot equity, which does not add up here.Don't get discourage though. You have the right "mindset" looking for "spots" and "situations" to exploit for value, you just haven't developed how to recognize these entirely. Don't let this failed attempt stop you from trying to search out these situations, just work on spotting them and separating the bad from the good ones.

[Omaha Hi/Lo 0]

Simple answer: Your opponents most likely did have enough to fold, especially the uy with only 6k or so. He's not putting in 800 and then folding. Yes, he's a moron, but that's even MORE reason to not try a move on this pot. I make moves on pots with players who have poker brains and who think about the hands and odds and equity and all that. I want them to talk themself into a fold. A player who has 6k and puts in 800 isn't going to talk himself into a fold, he's going to call, so you have virtually no fold equity in this hand, which means you're playing 9-4os for pure pot equity, which does not add up here.Don't get discourage though. You have the right "mindset" looking for "spots" and "situations" to exploit for value, you just haven't developed how to recognize these entirely. Don't let this failed attempt stop you from trying to search out these situations, just work on spotting them and separating the bad from the good ones.

Well said.

[RISEorFall 0]

Reads: for the most part everyone is playing pretty tight/straight forward poker and button has limped LOTS of hands.

how can you have a tight table with 3 limpers and button plays lots of hands?sorry, i add nothing usefulcarry on

[Al Smooth 0]

There is one other thing that I didn't see anyone else mention. Live players, ESPECIALLY the less experienced live players have more respect for an all in bet rather than a raise (small, big, sneaky or otherwise). It's a risky play, especially with the 6k stack limping in there, but there are some very good poker players, both online (Sheets) and live (Barry G) who believe heavily in the same sort of play when you're getting short. A successful steal here and he's moving up from 11 bb's to ~15 which based on the stack sizes he mentions at the table is CRUCIAL! Unfortunately there's not much you can do if the 6k stack esentially gives up on the tournament and calls off with KJ.Basically I agree with what most here said...shove, don't raise 1/2 your stack here, and the only two people you have to worry about are the UTG limper and the shortie.