Is My Stake Level / Bankroll Managment A Recipe For Disaster?

[Syntonic 0]

Heya,When I first started playing poker I really didn't realize how important bankroll management is, so I would often load enough money for a few buy-ins, run pretty good, then just go broke. After taking a break and reading up on how to actually play successfully online, I gave it another shot and reloaded $20 to play lower stakes. I played .05/0.10 steadily up for a week to get to about ~50. I felt pretty comfortable at these stakes, and quick frankly, found it somewhat boring - in fact, the reason I was playing it was to move up to .10/.25 (the stake that I was playing at beforehand.) Anywho, to make a long story short, I was able to work my 20->50 then from 50->270 at .10/.25.I'm pretty happy with what I've done, but I'm also a bit worried that I'll go on a bad run and just go broke. And since I'm a broke college student, I've had to take 150 from my roll, so I'm sitting at 120. I know everyone is going to say that playing with ~5 buy-ins is bad, but I really feel comfortable playing at the stake level. So my question is: what is more important, being comfortable at a level, or sufficiently having enough buy-ins to take the swings? Obviously both is ideal. In general I think I play well, and have a good feel for what my opponent is holding, but my bankroll is just going up and down like a yo-yo. I'll go up to 160, down to 80, down to 50, back up to 90, back up to 120, etc. Any advice would be appreciated. If there are suggestions to move down a level, is there any way to make it more interesting / less boring? I've played SNGs and I'm ok at them, but haven't done very well on the $4.40 180s (which has hit my roll for ~30) - so I basically just consider myself a cash game player.Thanks guys, and sorry this turned out so wordy.

[VernonME 0]

Important - Stick to proper bankroll management. It is an ultimate rule you must learn to follow, no matter how hard it is to stay away from the higher stake games. I'm sure higher stakes will entertain you, with the thrill of "playing with mostly all you got", but this will only lead to you losing your bankroll. If you play with proper bankroll managements, those "swings" you have will not be as costly as it would be if you were to continue playing in the higher stakes. It's good that you feel comfortable playing higher stakes, but you'll regret it all when you lose a chunk of your bankroll, thus most likely leading to you playing even higher stakes to compensate for your loss. In the end, just play the standard 5% stake games, build your bankroll, and move up when your bankroll allows it. This will lead to online success, that is if your a decent player.As for your boredom, every poker player has this. If you get bored of cash game, play other games other than hold em, obviously at lower stakes. This entertains me. Or, as you've already stated, play SNG's and/or tournies, but just don't get carried away with these if they are not your strong point. Keep the stakes low if your weak in this gameplay. But personally, I believe that when you get bored, just try to take a break and relax. Find something else to entertain you and keep your mind off poker. You'll come back when your ready and refreshed, thus optimizing your poker skills. You'll find poker to be just as entertaining as you first started and play so much more enthusiastically, thus again, leading to success. (Also, its just healthy to take a break from poker. If you play bored, you'll most likely lose money because it gets to a point where you really don't care anymore). Hope this helps and good luck to building your BR.I just experienced what you have gone through. I had a br of 500, played higher stakes than what my br allowed, played well, and brought it up to a decent number. Then got bored, started to donk it off, and played even higher stakes to recuperate my losses. This obviously led to huge swings and me feeling stupid. I ended up with my original br and decided to withdraw my money and take a break of poker (as I'm continuing as I type). Now in the end, I've learned my lesson, and through this post, hopefully I or you won't do this again.

[Zilla 0]

Great article on BR Management, also read Doyle's Supersystem 1 on the swings of br management.http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/tip-email-100...t.php?utm_id=89

[bigstack1980 0]

This is what my problem is loading enough to just get by monthly then get bored at lower stakes and ride the rocket up in my BR... then lose it and being bummed out... I need to learn discipline.... ty for posting on this subject... GL on your BR

[Kid DynOmite 0]

If you play with 5 buy ins you will probably go broke. The best players will go on cruel swings. Especially in games were players will make crazy calls, having the proper br is so important.Read the other posts: they seem like they have pretty sound advice and they have not been awake for 20+ hours.

[ObeyTheDog 0]

I found zilla's signature pic to be simultaneously the most entertaining thing and best advice in this thread.

[Jennings7 0]

Boredom is part of poker. If you are looking for a thrill, go gamble in the pit. If you are looking to build a bank roll and get better, stick to proper bank roll management.

[mln_falcon 0]

I have 5 Buyin downswings every second week, BR management is your friend.Edit: and despite your supposed comfort playing that short is still playing scared money. Move down to 2c/5c and enjoy the feeling of knowing you'll never go broke. It's great, poker becomes fun again.

[Actuary 3]

quit blaming BR management for going broke numerous times.Understand that playing with 5 buyins and going broke 5 times in a row, is the same as starting with 25 Buyins and going broke once - which you should rarely do if you are "comfortable at a level."in loving memory of Abbadabbaddo

[Syntonic 0]

quit blaming BR management for going broke numerous times.Understand that playing with 5 buyins and going broke 5 times in a row, is the same as starting with 25 Buyins and going broke once - which you should rarely do if you are "comfortable at a level."

I don't know if you're talking to me, or someone else in the thread.I don't really understand what your point is, but maybe it's just late and I'm tired. Are you saying playing well is more important than strictly following 20+ buy-ins? I've never gone broke playing .10/.25, only when I'm dumb and play shortstack 1/2.

and despite your supposed comfort playing that short is still playing scared money.

When I play, I don't feel that I'm on scared money. I'm perfectly ok with losing 2 buy-ins, as long as I know that I played well and put my money in with the best of it. As stated originally I've dropped down to ~50 - this was mainly due to really dumb hands, like me flopping a set, villian making a horrible call with top-pair, bad kicker, and him winning with runner runner flush. Maybe I've just gotten lucky and haven't hit a bad streak where I've lost more than ~3 buy-ins.Has anyone here lost 5-6 buy-ins in a row? Can I expect in the future to just hit a horrible streak?

[Abbaddabba 0]

Actuary always knows exactly what ill say in threads like these. <3For more constructive criticism though,why are you in a rush? Just play a few levels lower. If you're good enough to win at .10/.25, you should be able to do even better at smaller games. Play lots of tables, clear bonuses and/or get rakeback, and you should easily accumulate way more than enough to play in bigger games within a week.if you fail, then you probably cant win in the bigger games anyways.

[Actuary 3]

I don't know if you're talking to me, or someone else in the thread.I don't really understand what your point is, but maybe it's just late and I'm tired. Are you saying playing well is more important than strictly following 20+ buy-ins? I've never gone broke playing .10/.25, only when I'm dumb and play shortstack 1/2.

I was addressing the general excuse I see posted on here (not you specifically), that the reason one goes broke is due to bad BR Mangment,But to answer your question, YES, playing well is more important than having 20+ buyins.And, how many buyins you have is totally irrelevant if reloading is easy. Then, you really have an infinite bankroll.On the other hand, if a player preaches 30 Buy In Rule and cannot beat the game, he'll go broke eventually anyway, or continue to mouve down levels until he finds one he beats...So it all comes back to, you have to play levels you can beat in the long run, regardless of your roll, if you want to make money.ps: And yes, the best players have lost 5+ buyins in a night, for sure. Aba makes a great point... you should be able to earn enough playing 4 tables to move up an maybe if ou built it up it would mean something and you would continue good BR habits. Playing within your roll at a level you can beat allows you to accumulate money and move up to make more money (hopefully) without having to put new money in.

[antistuff 0]

unless you really have no way of getting more money online take shots. if you see a good game go for it. get broke. have fun. don't be a nit. a bankrolls not a bankroll until its something you cannot replace right away if you lose it. then worry about managing it right.if you are looking for less variance in nlhe try short stacking. read ed millers book getting started in holdem and the slotbom(sp?) book on omaha for info (same ideas apply).

[mln_falcon 0]

unless you really have no way of getting more money online take shots. if you see a good game go for it. get broke. have fun. don't be a nit. a bankrolls not a bankroll until its something you cannot replace right away if you lose it. then worry about managing it right.if you are looking for less variance in nlhe try short stacking. read ed millers book getting started in holdem and the slotbom(sp?) book on omaha for info (same ideas apply).

Wow this is very wrong. Even If its easily replenishable the good habits you get into from following good bankroll management is worth the extra effort. I had $300 total in my poker br (money I have put aside specifically for poker) with $30 online. I continually put money online and flushed it away in donkaments. I said I'm building this $30 up or I'm not playing online again for like 6 months and I'll just play live with the rest. Playing cash games within my br has given me a good profit and taught me really good habits. I've moved up two levels comfortably and will soon move up again. Yes losing 5 buyins 5 times is the same as losing 25 once, but losing 25 gives you the chance to learn what you are doing wrong, and you're supposed to move down at some point. 25 buyins means you can have a 5 buyin downswing and still feel comfortable and a 8-10 buyin downsing is needed before you have to move down. With 5 buyins your very likely to go broke unless you move down anytime you lose a buyin.If you don't have money you can't play. Going broke is the worse thing you can do, even if its temporary.And also if your a -ev player you'll lose anyway but if you follow some sort of bankroll management you'll lose less, and lose it less quickly, giving you more time to 1) get better, 2) play and have fun.Edit: Not that I'm not saying playing well is not needed, don't get me wrong. But br management is a huge factor in why people lose at poker.

[Zach6668 513]

^^^ What antistuff is saying, is that the bankroll is a theoretical thing.Unless you want it to just be what's in your poker account, it really includes all money you're willing to use towards it.If you only have $300 online, but $6k sitting in your bank account, and don't care about reloading, than you poker bankroll is theoretically whatever you want to reload up to.It's not saying that trying to never deposit again isn't a great way to learn the fundamentals of BR management.For example, I've usually got $1000 online. I play 3/6 and 5/10. My bankroll is (slightly) larger than that, and large enough for me to play 3/6 and 5/10.Essentially, he's just making the point that a BR is an imaginary thing, really, not exactly what you have in your account. (Imaginary is prolly not the right word, but I didn't want to say "theoretical" again.

[mln_falcon 0]

Its theoretical to a point. There is still a point at some stage even if they have 6k and said I'm happy reloading up to 2k, If they were to lose that in one night they would still be hugely bummed (psychological bankroll). And even if you have no problems redepositing you get to a point that your spending life money, so none has an infinite bankroll as Actuary described.Also OP sounded like he wasn't redepositing so 5 buyins is suicidal in this case.I'm not against taking shots, I've done it, but you have to realise its an exception, not the norm.

[Actuary 3]

so none has an infinite bankroll as Actuary described.

I have for all intents and purposes and infinte bankroll for 0.02/0.04 LHE.I can't/don't play enough to to burn thru 1000 BB/month. And I'll always have at least $40 to deposit.

[antistuff 0]

^^^ What antistuff is saying, is that the bankroll is a theoretical thing.Unless you want it to just be what's in your poker account, it really includes all money you're willing to use towards it.If you only have $300 online, but $6k sitting in your bank account, and don't care about reloading, than you poker bankroll is theoretically whatever you want to reload up to.It's not saying that trying to never deposit again isn't a great way to learn the fundamentals of BR management.For example, I've usually got $1000 online. I play 3/6 and 5/10. My bankroll is (slightly) larger than that, and large enough for me to play 3/6 and 5/10.Essentially, he's just making the point that a BR is an imaginary thing, really, not exactly what you have in your account. (Imaginary is prolly not the right word, but I didn't want to say "theoretical" again.

that and i also think its kind of silly to be nitty when the required bankroll for games you are playing in is something you are able to obtain from putting aside a little out of each paycheck for a few weeks. even if you go broke a few times if you always put your money in +ev you will come out ahead in the long run, 25 buyins be damned. id' worry a lot more about making sure im putting my money in +ev (game selection) than if im rolled for that game. to answer the ops question - if you are starting with 5 buyins for a game that you can beat and you keep the money you've won as part of your roll until you get to around 20-25 buyins, i like your chances of not going broke. especially if you play carefully and occasionally sacrifice a little ev for reduced variance.

[mln_falcon 0]

Post when you go broke /thread

[Mr. Sparco 2]

Great article on BR Management, also read Doyle's Supersystem 1 on the swings of br management.http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/tip-email-100...t.php?utm_id=89

Quote from this article:

• If at any time during a No-Limit or Pot-Limit cash-game session the money on the table represents more than 10 percent of my total bankroll, I must leave the game when the blinds reach me.

I have always wondered what exactly the reasoning behind this rule is. It seems opposite to the usual "when the table is soft, don't leave when you have reached a certain limit, but keep playing". Is it just to keep variance down at the times you bet your entire stack in a single hand?I assume that by "the money on the table" he means his own stack - or would it refer to the total money on the table?Any useful insights?

[mln_falcon 0]

Quote from this article:

• If at any time during a No-Limit or Pot-Limit cash-game session the money on the table represents more than 10 percent of my total bankroll, I must leave the game when the blinds reach me.

I have always wondered what exactly the reasoning behind this rule is. It seems opposite to the usual "when the table is soft, don't leave when you have reached a certain limit, but keep playing". Is it just to keep variance down at the times you bet your entire stack in a single hand?I assume that by "the money on the table" he means his own stack - or would it refer to the total money on the table?Any useful insights?

Jesus is a short stack nit. Any time he doubles up he is still covered so he has 10% of his bankroll on the table and can lose that in one hand which isn't fun. If he played with a full stack his effective stack when he doubled would still only be 5% or so or if he played a level where he has more than 20 buyins for then you can have effective stacks that are double or triple his original stack and still have less than 10% of his total bankroll. Its more when you first start at a level so that you never lose a huge chunk of your bankroll in one hand.Edit: realised I didn't actually answer your question, he means the money in front of him. He leaves the game because he isn't comfortable losing that much in one hand. It's complicated in regards to quitting a soft game. Yes if the games good you shouldn't leave, but if your uncomfortable with the money your playing you'll play bad. Not so bad in a passive game, but if your in a high variance loose aggressive game, you can actually create situations where your bad opponent is playing correctly because of your scared money. I think he said somewhere else he doesn't quit for the session, so it's not a case of long sessions when your losing, short when your winning he just moves tables. He's essentially ratholing.

[Merby 3]

Quote from this article:

• If at any time during a No-Limit or Pot-Limit cash-game session the money on the table represents more than 10 percent of my total bankroll, I must leave the game when the blinds reach me.

I have always wondered what exactly the reasoning behind this rule is. It seems opposite to the usual "when the table is soft, don't leave when you have reached a certain limit, but keep playing". Is it just to keep variance down at the times you bet your entire stack in a single hand?I assume that by "the money on the table" he means his own stack - or would it refer to the total money on the table?Any useful insights?

Quite simply it's not a good idea to be risking more than 10% of your bankroll at any one time. If the table is soft, then you may be able to get your money allin as a 9-1 favourite (or better ) but there is still a chance that you will end up losing that money.You should never be concerned to risk all your money at the table at any given time... but any time you do, you may lose it (it's sooo rare to be able to get all your money in with your opponent(s) drawing dead).For Jesus, his psychological "breaking point" is at 10% of his bankroll....and for me, that number rings true too.