nomad_monad 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button ($115.15)SB ($98.90)Hero ($166.10)UTG ($96.50)Villain ($111.25)Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q. UTG raises to $3.5, Villain raises to $12, 2 folds, Hero calls $11, UTG folds.Flop: ($28) A, T, Q(2 players)Hero checks, Villain checks.Turn: ($28) 5(2 players)Hero checks, Villain bets $99.25 (All-In), Hero ?Reads: I've played with villain a couple of sessions. He's semi-LAG to begin with and then gets progressively more so as he gains in position. I've seen him reraise steal from the button and from the blinds a couple of times, but other than that I don't know much about his preflop reraise range.Overall PT stats are 33/18/3, but for this session (about 40 hands) he's been running more like 27/14/3. Don't know if that matters any. Link to post Share on other sites
No_Neck 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button ($115.15)SB ($98.90)Hero ($166.10)UTG ($96.50)Villain ($111.25)Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q. UTG raises to $3.5, Villain raises to $12, 2 folds, BB =#A500AF(Hero)/ calls $11, UTG folds.Flop: ($28) A, T, Q(2 players)Hero checks, Villain checks.Turn: ($28) 5(2 players)Hero checks, Villain bets $99.25 (All-In), Hero ?Reads: I've played with villain a couple of sessions. He's semi-LAG to begin with and then gets progressively more so as he gains in position. I've seen him reraise steal from the button and from the blinds a couple of times, but other than that I don't know much about his preflop reraise range.Overall PT stats are 33/18/3, but for this session (about 40 hands) he's been running more like 27/14/3. Don't know if that matters any.EDIT - Hold one sec while I fix the lack of suits... (converter issue)I think you have to fold... can't see him not turning over the flush or the straight here. Link to post Share on other sites
shinzilla 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button ($115.15)SB ($98.90)Hero ($166.10)UTG ($96.50)Villain ($111.25)Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q. UTG raises to $3.5, Villain raises to $12, 2 folds, Hero calls $11, UTG folds.Flop: ($28) A, T, Q(2 players)Hero checks, Villain checks.Turn: ($28) 5(2 players)Hero checks, Villain bets $99.25 (All-In), Hero ?Reads: I've played with villain a couple of sessions. He's semi-LAG to begin with and then gets progressively more so as he gains in position. I've seen him reraise steal from the button and from the blinds a couple of times, but other than that I don't know much about his preflop reraise range.Overall PT stats are 33/18/3, but for this session (about 40 hands) he's been running more like 27/14/3. Don't know if that matters any.I definitely would've bet on the flop. I'm not sure how I feel about the pf action. The turn is a sick, sick spot. I think villain has either a set of aces or 10's. I really don't know what I'd do there. Tough situation. I don't think he shows up there with KJ unless he's a very loose 3-bettor. Would he overbet shove holding a flush on the turn? Seems doubtful. Yeah, I have no idea what to do. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 He hardly has the flush here... only KQh and KJh would make sense, and they don't 3-bet that often. I'm scared of one hand. AA. Link to post Share on other sites
BrandonPL 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I also think you should have bet the flop and gotten some kind of information. The only hands I can really put him on are A Kh, AA, and TT. I really don't know what I would do after checking the flop. Link to post Share on other sites
nomad_monad 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Author Share Posted July 30, 2007 the lack of a flop bet might have been bad. assuming we bet the flop, do we fold to a push? or are we only betting to price out a possible draw? because unless we're folding to a push (i probably wouldn't) then we are not betting the flop for "info" at all here.regardless, as played, it seems like most people are leaning towards a call? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I'm pretty much never folding this hand on the flop. Link to post Share on other sites
sierradave 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Wow. Um, wow. I can't see giving him credit for the flush here, unless it's a tiny one. The hands I'm worried about are AA and KJ without a heart. But he has no reason to put you on anything close to a set of queens. This bet is basically a dare, and the question is whether he's daring you because he has the K of hearts, ace-ten, or nothing in particular.Have you seen him make the all-in overbet before? Unless I have a specific read that he'd do this with a monster, hoping you'll look him up with one pair, I think I'd have to call here. KJ is the only strong hand on the flop I would expect him not to c-bet. If he had a four-flush, wouldn't he stab? And if your set of queens ran into the flopped str8, that's one of those times where the stacks are generally going to go in. I'm very curious how this turned out, and what people's thoughts are about dealing with these kinds of opponents. I've played a couple with the over-the-top betting patterns in live games. I generally can't put them on a hand, so strategy ends up reverting to level 0 or so. Level 0 says a set of queens is awesome. Link to post Share on other sites
sabes99 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 must bet this flop here...with all the possibilities out there you need to lead because you are going to get action from A-K, A-Q, and 10-10, and he won't put you on a set because you didn't check to the pf re-raiserthe turn is a sick spot, but i think i'm stacking off...would he really overbet a flush like that? and what kind of hand could he re-raise pf with since the Ah is out there? there just aren't many possibilities Link to post Share on other sites
sabes99 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 do we fold to a push?never Link to post Share on other sites
sierradave 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 the lack of a flop bet might have been bad. assuming we bet the flop, do we fold to a push? or are we only betting to price out a possible draw? because unless we're folding to a push (i probably wouldn't) then we are not betting the flop for "info" at all here.regardless, as played, it seems like most people are leaning towards a call?Good point. Villain bets this flop with most holdings, except potentially checking behind with an underpair to the board. If he'd check behind with the underpair, then he'd likely fold to a flop bet. The board is heavily coordinated, but it's a good texture for a reraiser, so it's really odd that he didn't fire at it.Given his starting stack size, we're looking to get all the chips in the pot with our set. That's going to be in 3 chunks of $20, $30, and $50. Usually I'd check the flop, let him bet the $20, then either check-raise him to $50 or smooth-call and bet out $30-$40 on the turn. His check-behind messes up the betting pattern and sets weird "what's going on here" alarm bells off, but the goal on the turn is still largely to get all the money in the pot.Also, question: why did you check again on the turn rather than leading out? If he has an underpair, now's the time to charge him in case he picked up a redraw. If he has KJ, another set, or two pair, you fire out and he'll push over the top, probably thinking he trapped you, but often being wrong.As for the possibility of running into aces, I figure running into set-over-set is a lot like going to the dentist. It sucks, nobody likes it, it happens periodically, and you can't really get around it. Good pot control is maybe like flossing - it can help you avoid some of the most painful procedures some of the time. But with stacks of $100, set-over-set is a stack-off, and we'll have the bigger set exactly as often as we'll have the smaller one... Link to post Share on other sites
nomad_monad 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Author Share Posted July 30, 2007 Also, question: why did you check again on the turn rather than leading out? If he has an underpair, now's the time to charge him in case he picked up a redraw. If he has KJ, another set, or two pair, you fire out and he'll push over the top, probably thinking he trapped you, but often being wrong.Not sure. I think I might have checked again on the turn because the flop check behind by the villain made me think I was either WA or WB. I probably CRAI if he bets again - I think I just figured that by checking at least I make some $ if he decides to stab at it with nothing, knowing that I get stacked if I'm crushed anyway. But I wasn't expecting the massive overbet.As for the possibility of running into aces, I figure running into set-over-set is a lot like going to the dentist.I laughed Link to post Share on other sites
jimhoff14 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Not sure. I think I might have checked again on the turn because the flop check behind by the villain made me think I was either WA or WB. I probably CRAI if he bets again - I think I just figured that by checking at least I make some $ if he decides to stab at it with nothing, knowing that I get stacked if I'm crushed anyway. But I wasn't expecting the massive overbet.I laughedThere is no way this guy has the flush. If he did have the flush, he would value bet to try to get a call from a lot of hands. Plus with you checking twice and showing so much weakness, I think this guy is trying to push you off and ace here or does have 3 aces and is afraid of another heart. This bet looks most to me like kk with the king of hearts. I am calling this almost always.jimhoff Link to post Share on other sites
Lavitz 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Bet turn always. Call this push always, AINEC. Link to post Share on other sites
nomad_monad 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Author Share Posted July 30, 2007 So it seems like the consensus is (mostly) call.Ok, time to fess up - I was villain in this hand and I jammed the pot on the turn with... 9h3h.UTG had been coming in for a raise, regardless of position, about 60% of the time over 30-40 hands, but had been playing under control postflop and to preflop reraises. I was looking for a spot to reraise him with absolute trash and I planned to show him if he folded to send the message that against him, I could be in there with any 2 cards as well (of course, that wouldn't be my plan from that point onward).I picked this hand because it's not one, like suited connectors or small pairs, that I would hate to get 3-bet out of in case UTG had a hand. Plus it's one that gets me in minimal trouble against UTG postflop if I get called (I'm pretty much done with it).When I got coldcalled by the BB, who was a decent player, I immediately put him on AK and AA-TT, with the prime suspects being AK,JJ, and QQ (decent player probably reraises AA/KK, probably folds TT). Once the flop came, I saw no point in c-betting since the only hand I'd fold would be JJ, maybe KK. Anything else would probably push, as evinced by all your posts. Thus I was content to take a free card with pretty massive implied odds in case he held AA/QQ/TT. The flop check made me think that AK was the least likely of his holdings - that's the one hand where it could make sense to bet then fold to a push based on "info."Once I hit my flush, I thought about value betting once he checked to me, but I decided to overbet instead because - Just in case he decided to play it cautious by flat calling a value bet. Another heart, a K, or a J on the river could kill any further action. - If he has a set, it's going to be hard for him to fold it. If he has anything else, I think he folds a high % of the time regardless of whether I value bet or overbet. Whatever slight value I might lose v. AK/KK/JJ, I think I more than make up for by stacking all the set hands right here, leaving them no chance to get out on the river. - With the high card board out and the reraise preflop, it's hard for him to give me credit for any reasonable flush. Especially if I push instead of value bet.That was my thinking, but I felt sort of iffy about it afterwards because maybe I do cause QQ/TT to fold here more than I'd like. Maybe a value-bet is more appropriate here since the set hands usually, but not always, push anyway? Not sure - his check on the turn made me think that perhaps he didn't want to play for stacks unless I forced him to.EDIT - Needless to say, after this hand, I played like a tightwad the rest of my time at the table. Link to post Share on other sites
BrandonPL 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 So it seems like the consensus is (mostly) call.Ok, time to fess up - I was villain in this hand, and I jammed the pot on the turn with... 9h3h.UTG had been coming in for a raise, regardless of position, about 60% of the time over 30-40 hands, but had been playing under control postflop and to preflop reraises. I was looking for a spot to reraise him with absolute trash and I planned to show him if he folded to send the message that against him, I could be in there with any 2 cards as well (of course, that wouldn't be my plan from that point onward).I picked this hand because it's not one, like suited connectors or small pairs, that I would hate to get 3-bet out of in case UTG had a hand. Plus it's one that gets me in minimal trouble against UTG postflop if I get called (I'm pretty much done with it).When I got coldcalled by the BB, who was a decent player, I immediately put him on AK and AA-TT, with the prime suspects being AK,JJ, and QQ (decent player probably reraises AA/KK, probably folds TT). Once the flop came, I saw no point in c-betting since the only hand I'd fold would be JJ, maybe KK. Anything else would probably push, as evinced by all your posts. Thus I was content to take a free card with pretty massive implied odds in case he held AA/QQ/TT. The flop check made me think that AK was the least likely of his holdings - that's the one hand where it could make sense to bet then fold to a push based on "info."Once I hit my flush, I thought about value betting once he checked to me, but I decided to overbet instead because - Just in case he decided to play it cautious by flat calling a value bet. Another heart, a K, or a J on the river could kill any further action. - If he has a set, it's going to be hard for him to fold it. If he has anything else, I think he folds a high % of the time regardless of whether I value bet or overbet. Whatever slight value I might lose v. AK/KK/JJ, I think I more than make up for by stacking all the set hands right here, leaving them no chance to get out on the river. - With the high card board out and the reraise preflop, it's hard for him to give me credit for any reasonable flush. Especially if I push instead of value bet.That was my thinking, but I felt sort of iffy about it afterwards because maybe I do cause QQ/TT to fold here more than I'd like. Maybe a value-bet is more appropriate here since the set hands usually, but not always, push anyway? Not sure - his check on the turn made me think that perhaps he didn't want to play for stacks unless I forced him to.EDIT - Needless to say, after this hand, I played like a tightwad the rest of my time at the table.So he called and u won> Link to post Share on other sites
nomad_monad 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Author Share Posted July 30, 2007 So he called and u won>yeah, he used up almost all of his time and then called. river was a J, non-heart. Link to post Share on other sites
antistuff 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I also think you should have bet the flop and gotten some kind of value Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Not betting the flop is borderline criminal Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Have you seen him make the all-in overbet before? Unless I have a specific read that he'd do this with a monster, hoping you'll look him up with one pair, I think I'd have to call here.This is weird. Monster is my default read for this type of action at anything less than $400nl unless I have a specific read that the guy is an idiot. That being said though, I'd most likely call in this spot and suck-out to teach the guy a lesson for three-betting me with a hand like 89h's Link to post Share on other sites
No_Neck 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I think you have to fold... can't see him not turning over the flush or the straight here. He hardly has the flush here...cough, cough, cough Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 cough, cough, cough I had just assumed we weren't retarded enough to 3-bet with 93 sooted.Excuse me. Link to post Share on other sites
simo_8ball 1 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I had just assumed we weren't awesome enough to 3-bet with 93 sooted.Excuse me.FYP Link to post Share on other sites
No_Neck 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I had just assumed we weren't retarded enough to 3-bet with 93 sooted.Excuse me.there are plenty of retards still out there.edit: no offense nomad Link to post Share on other sites
sierradave 0 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 You're my new hero. nh sir. Link to post Share on other sites
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