Jj Early In The Neg-o

[Yahkin 0]

27th hand of the tourney. SB's play and chat has revealed that he is a complete idiot. His calls definately mean ATC and I don't take his actions into consideration at all.Button is a forum regular who I have faced a number of times in the Wednesday night strat tourney. He is aggressive early and a resteal in this spot is very likely.This is a tough tourney with some very good players. I am not the best player at the table, so having a stack is important. I'm confident I'm ahead right now, but there's a good chance I'm racing. Is this a spot we want to take a chance in, or wait for a better spot?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button (t5420)SB (t1115)Hero (t3605)UTG (t5065)UTG+1 (t2635)MP1 (t3790)MP2 (t2180)CO (t2605)Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J. 5 folds, Button raises to t90, SB calls t75, Hero raises to t330, Button raises to t5420, SB calls t1025 (All-In), Hero ???

[JesterSB 0]

You have 330 invested in the pot. Easy fold.P.S. I HATE JJ!P.P.S. In the immortal words of Phil Hellmuth Jr. "It's just jacks"

[sabes99 0]

instafold, you only have 330 in this pot and you want to race for the last 3300? there has to be a better spot out there somewhere

[Stuples 0]

Foldy woldy

[Yahkin 0]

How do we guard against the resteal in this situation?

[Stuples 0]

How do we guard against the resteal in this situation?

Call... What do you mean?

[Yahkin 0]

Well, if the only thing that we should call with is KK+, wouldn't it be +EV for the button to always push in this situation no matter his holding?Call and play for set value against 2 people OOP with 4th pair? That's seems like a huge waste.

[Stuples 0]

Well, if the only thing that we should call with is KK+, wouldn't it be +EV for the button to always push in this situation no matter his holding?Call and play for set value against 2 people OOP with 4th pair? That's seems like a huge waste.

Argh I see your point. There is two lines to take on this1) We reraise so we like our hand. If Yahkin is aware of how Button plays then maybe he is aware of our style. In which case he thinks we like our hand and knows we're gonna have a hard to folding so he shoves hoping we'll call. So we fold.2) He knows we're thinking along the lines of 1) and shoves for these reasons hoping we'll fold.I dont mind folding even if it is a steal. So what if we got bluffed of one hand. If we never get bluffed off a hand then we're calling too much. If it was a steal attempt then he picked the right person.Sorry if any of this seems dumb I'm rubbish at talking/writing strat.And how would calling suggest we're playing for set value when calling would put us allin?

[Yahkin 0]

And how would calling suggest we're playing for set value when calling would put us allin?

Oh, I thought when you answered my protect against the resteal question you had advocated flat calling the initial raise of the button of 90...instead of reraising like I did.

[JesterSB 0]

Well, if the only thing that we should call with is KK+, wouldn't it be +EV for the button to always push in this situation no matter his holding?Call and play for set value against 2 people OOP with 4th pair? That's seems like a huge waste.

How often are we reraising his button "steals"? If you think you are ahead, why not just call the bet and re-evaluate the flop. If overcards come, oh well, you have to let it go, but we only lost 90 in that case. Here you reraise 330, and have to fold to the push. Even if he just calls you still have to fold to overs on the flop and lose 330. I guess my point is the next time you reraise his button steal, have AA, KK or AK and instacall his push. Don't reraise with middle pairs from the BB to a button raise, you are just asking for trouble.

[Yahkin 0]

How often are we reraising his button "steals"? If you think you are ahead, why not just call the bet and re-evaluate the flop. If overcards come, oh well, you have to let it go, but we only lost 90 in that case. Here you reraise 330, and have to fold to the push. Even if he just calls you still have to fold to overs on the flop and lose 330. I guess my point is the next time you reraise his button steal, have AA, KK or AK and instacall his push. Don't reraise with middle pairs from the BB to a button raise, you are just asking for trouble.

So you are advocating calling for set value or a dream flop. I'm sorry, but that's seems pretty weak. JJ is NOT a middle pair and we should feel comfortable buying the pot with it. As for the button's action so far, He was sitting out for the first couple circuits. Since he had arrived he had raised to 90 both times from the button. I folded 72o the first time.As for instafolding to his push, this is the normal play against an unknown player...but not as easy here since I know he is LAG early and would not hesitate to resteal. I'm 55% to win against 2 overs, and I feel his range is wide enough that I could very well be against a single over or smaller pairs.

[HijackedAffairs 0]

It's a huge raise so this probably AK, but I fold as I don't have that much invested.

[JesterSB 0]

So you are advocating calling for set value or a dream flop. I'm sorry, but that's seems pretty weak. JJ is NOT a middle pair and we should feel comfortable buying the pot with it. As for the button's action so far, He was sitting out for the first couple circuits. Since he had arrived he had raised to 90 both times from the button. I folded 72o the first time.As for instafolding to his push, this is the normal play against an unknown player...but not as easy here since I know he is LAG early and would not hesitate to resteal. I'm 55% to win against 2 overs, and I feel his range is wide enough that I could very well be against a single over or smaller pairs.

The flop will come without overs a little more than 50% of the time (if he has 2 overs in his hand plus at least one over possible from the SB). That is not a "dream flop" senario. I play JJ like a middle pair because of these situations exactly. If I was short stacked or against a short stack I would just push it. Here I would just call. Two rotations are not enough to get a read IMO. I guess if you know his game from previous times playing him, you can call, but I still don't think it's worth a flip for my tourney this early with a deep stack especially since you COULD be dominated.

[darkrider88 0]

I think both plays, calling the 90 and reraising are reasonable choices. In dealing with the problem of a resteal, the way I see it you are only reraising him with one of five hands: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK. Sure he'll win the 330 when you fold JJ (and probably AK), but you'll take his stack most of the time with AA, KK, QQ.

[Yahkin 0]

Well, I thought about it...convinced myself he was restealing and called. I lost the race.I'm starting to think you are a luckbox Gallo, I believe this is 3 times now I've gotten it in ahead with you and I lost. :PPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button (t5420)SB (t1115)Hero (t3605)UTG (t5065)UTG+1 (t2635)MP1 (t3790)MP2 (t2180)CO (t2605)Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J. 5 folds, Button raises to t90, SB calls t75, Hero raises to t330, Button raises to t5420, SB calls t1025 (All-In), Hero calls t3275 (All-In).Flop: (t10140) Q, 3, 2(3 players, 2 all-in)Turn: (t10140) Q(3 players, 2 all-in)River: (t10140) 4(3 players, 2 all-in)Final Pot: t8325Results below:SB has As 4d (two pair, queens and fours). Hero has Jc Jd (two pair, queens and jacks). Button has Kc Qs (three of a kind, queens). Outcome: Button wins t10140.

[Gallo 1]

Ok, here are my thoughts on this situation. It was true that I had been sitting out for a few rotations, when I came back, I decided to just outright play superaggressive, I was setting up my image that if you were gonna play against me it would probably be for your tourney life. For the most part this worked, people tended to stay out of my way and less players would limp in or they wouldn't attempt to steal my blinds when blinds did get a little bit higher. I think I usually have an edge in deep stacked torunaments because I'm not afraid to put my "life" at risk. If we only started out with 1500 chips I might not have played this aggressive. But when it's deepstacked players normally don't want to put their life on the line when blinds are so low and there is still plenty of poker to be played and better spots to put their money into.Yahkin was right that every time I was on the button or CO I was raising, it didn't matter to me what 2 cards I had. Heck I was even abusing the the SB everytime he limped in.Anyway, as Yahkin said, I had been raising the button almost everytime. When I raised here, I knew it was Yahkin and I knew he would be one of the few players that would play back at me knowing my tendencies. So as normal, I raised, this time with a btter holding than the other times. Yahkin then reraised, but when he reraised I thought he was either on a resteal or maybe he has a decent holding, I definitely did NOT put him on AA KK or QQ. The reason I did not put him on one of the big hands is because from previous tourneys his reraise would've been a little bit bigger. If he had any of the big hands he would've raised more because he knows I probably would not have folded to a reraise so he would want to get the most out of me and therefore have raised more than to just 380. Honestly it did not feel like he had a HUGE hand per se. So I shoved and put him to the test. One of 2 things was gonna happen he folds or calls. But because I felt that he did not have a huge hand and I did not mind racing if he called and even if I would've lost I would've still been left with about 1800 in chips, enough for me to keep playing with the blinds still low.Normally I would not play KQ this way, but like I said a few things came into play. One, I was playing a different style to setup my image. And two, it was against Yahkin who I knew would attempt to make a move here. Had it been anyone else, I probably just call the reraise in position, see the flop, take the pot and win the bare minimum.I already told Yahkin, even though he made the correct call in that he was ahead at the time, I thought it was a marginal call because there was still plenty of poker to be played and he probably should've just laid it down.Next time I make that move I just might have AA KK or QQ there. :rolleyes:I liked the discussion on this hand because it was more of a "I know, that you know, that I know, that you know" type of play.Sorry Yahkin.

[Kawishiwi 0]

Great thread!!! It's really interesting to hear the play in this hand from both hero's and villain's perspective, especially when there is so much player tendency knowledge. Although the decision is marginal at best I feel that the ideal play here is a fold. Even with our read on villain's range and even if we may be slightly ahead it is not worth our tourney life. There are better times to get your money in the pot in these tourneys.

[Gallo 1]

One last thing, as Yahkin said the SB didn't even matter to us in this hand, we both knew it was between me and him. lol He was just caught in the middle. The SB had A-rag I believe. I didn't know if SB was a donk or not, but once I just saw him call my raise and reraise, I knew he was.