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My Wsop Main Event Bust Out Hand


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I'd think for a minute or two for image, stare down the guy, and then call. I'm just not gonna throw the hand away in this particular spot against this laggy player with a chance to accumulate a lot of chips if you're right and your hand holds. Villian should know your image if he's at all perceptive and figures you'll fold almost any hand you have except qj, kjc, and maybe some worse queens. He's probably pushing a crappy flush draw like 47c and is putting the pressure on as he's done all day with his big stack. I'd call.

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villian probably has ak clubs. I don't think i call preflop with q9 flop trips then fold. If I was going to do that I would have folded q9 preflop. If It's me I'm happy to get my chips in against a player I know nothing about with trips. If I got cold decked or he has a big draw and I lose gg I'll get em next time. You can't cash in every tournament you play in and playing scared will get you an m of 3 with 10 ppl till the bubble.

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somehow im getting the feeling he called u with Q worse kicker and sucked out ?did u ever think of maybe calling on flop instead of raising and then re evaluate on turn if no scare cards fall this is probly how i wlda played it since were both fairly deep if he out flopped me and turn is no threat im getting it all in and stacking off either way such a sick way to go out man cant wait to hear what he had
Ya, I was torn on that....Between wanting to extract value, protect my hand, and finally giving myself another card. I decided that there were too many cards that could come off that would scare the crap out of me and effectively freeze me up OOP. If it had been more of a solid, TAG player, that is probably what I would have done. Against this guy though, I wanted him to define his hand on the flop. Similar to how I would play vs JC or Below etc. The shove caught me off guard however, and by calling I would have eliminated the chance of that happening. :-)
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For him to insta-push like that into you, I am certain he has a big drawing hand. Possibly Ax clubs, but I am leaning towards OESFD or GSSFD.I think with a queen, he's pushing, but it's not instant. He would probably pause to consider his kicker for a moment and the possibility that you have a queen versus a big draw. Even if he has AQ or a flopped FH, he's probably pausing to help encourage the call here.With a huge draw, the insta-push makes sense. Either you fold to the push, or he has a good chance to improve by the river (coin flip). Obviously if you have a FH, he's in huge trouble, but that is such a small subset of the hands that you would check-raise here as to not be an issue.The bottom line for me here, is that most smart aggro tournament players I know always put the pressure on their opponents in many spots as the big stack, but when they make a bet that is also putting their tournament life at risk (i.e. versus another big stack), they are either 95% sure the opponent is folding, or they have a strong hand/draw (so they can cash in on the times where they were pushing light into short stacks).

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I changed my mindset a year or so ago, with these very situations being the cornerstone. What does he turn over if you call that you like to see? At this point in the tournament 140ishk is no different then the 300k. you cant win the tournament on day2, and these are the make or break decisions that define the players that actually have a chance of winning. If he's pushing with something that makes you a huge favorite(albiet slim), then he's going to do it again. I say fold is the play here.How often during your session did he reraise shove?

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The people saying they'd fold are full of it. What's your reason for withholding the other players hand? There's no need to make an event out of it.
If this was an online tourney structure, then you'd be right. Those suggesting a fold would be full of it. You just wouldn't have a deep enough stack to get away from such a hand. If PMJ folds here he'd have around 75BB's. With his abilities he would definitely still be a force.The more I read PMJ's comments the more I think he liked his read. If you believe your read to that degree you go with it, but based on what I know (cancelling out PMJ's read) I fold.
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The people saying they'd fold are full of it. What's your reason for withholding the other players hand? There's no need to make an event out of it.
There are still some people I'd like to hear from before I make people's view even more results orientated. If I say he had AQ then people will say fold, if I say he had AA and turned an ace people will say I had to call. If I say he had QQ, people will say 'wtf, 5 queens in a deck?" :club:
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There are still some people I'd like to hear from before I make people's view even more results orientated. If I say he had AQ then people will say fold, if I say he had AA and turned an ace people will say I had to call. If I say he had QQ, people will say 'wtf, 5 queens in a deck?" :club:
Lol.My vote is KQ.
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For him to insta-push like that into you, I am certain he has a big drawing hand. Possibly Ax clubs, but I am leaning towards OESFD or GSSFD.
I like the idea, but couldn't hero be making the C/R with a huge draw? If that's the case, then if I'm villain I'm shoving a good queen to protect my hand here a good amount of the time.
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There are still some people I'd like to hear from before I make people's view even more results orientated. If I say he had AQ then people will say fold, if I say he had AA and turned an ace people will say I had to call. If I say he had QQ, people will say 'wtf, 5 queens in a deck?" :club:
It's not about whether you're ahead or behind in this situation that makes it right or wrong. Your had vs his range sucks. When he's ahead, you're drawing slim to beat him and slim to tie the pot. When you're not ahead, he probably has a minimum of 9 and as many as 15 outs to beat you. Any made hand that he pushes here is going to be better than yours.
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There are still some people I'd like to hear from before I make people's view even more results orientated. If I say he had AQ then people will say fold, if I say he had AA and turned an ace people will say I had to call. If I say he had QQ, people will say 'wtf, 5 queens in a deck?" :club:
"Patrick estaba jugando muy e-tight, defende en los bb's con Q9s...cosas asi."Patrick,I feel like it's a vv close decision between shoving and folding. I don't like flat-calling because as you've already stated there are a plethora of cards that will (whether correctly or not) influence your decision and cause you to fold or make a less than optimal decision. With him being cognizant of your tight image and the range of hands you play, and you realizing that he realizes this, it adds a monkeywrench into the decision for me.
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I could be wrong, but i think a lot of these posts are influenced by the fact that you lost on this hand. I know you didnt have an option, but it's very hard to give input knowing the results.

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If this was an online tourney structure, then you'd be right. Those suggesting a fold would be full of it. You just wouldn't have a deep enough stack to get away from such a hand. If PMJ folds here he'd have around 75BB's. With his abilities he would definitely still be a force.The more I read PMJ's comments the more I think he liked his read. If you believe your read to that degree you go with it, but based on what I know (cancelling out PMJ's read) I fold.
The thing about reads though, is that when is someone entirely comfortable without the nuts? I mean, even when I have AA pre I'm still anxious because I run like Sid Bream with a calf injury and half expect bad things to happen. And on the other hand, some donk could look supremely confident because he has TPTK and you are thinking about folding an overpair on a scary board. I think for a read to be truly effective you have to have a lot of playing time with the person as well as some knowledge of his 'situation' when it comes to poker. I mean, if Elizando was a multi-billionare from Mexico and thought AA is the nuts regardless because Mike Sexton tells him so, then he would probably look pretty confident, especially if I don't insta-call, because a less experienced player would think that I had to call with a queen.All this doesn't apply to specific reads, like 'whenever he has the nuts he pushes away from the table etc' obviously.
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Holy cow at some of this analysis. PMJ- I don't want to sound like an ***, but I think a big part of you knows that calling this shove is absolutely the correct play. If you were to really look at the range of an overaggro player on a draw heavy, pair on the board flop, it would be very wide. I mean, everybody seems to think that the guy "knows" you have a queen and is shoving accordingly. I would guess with a c/r here you almost never have a queen, and that he could be shoving naked tens, draws, big draws, JJ/KK/AA, and random air occasionally (but rarely). If you are playing to win at all, you have to call here everytime.

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You could get really deep into it and go 4th and 5th level thinking etc, and how our images of each other could be used etc....
I know......that you don't know..........that I don't know..........that you know........that I don't know.Sorry, I only saw Joe the Pro for the first time just the other day.Great to read all the analysis here, I've nothing more to add other than I'm going to guess KcJc for villain.
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Holy cow at some of this analysis. PMJ- I don't want to sound like an ***, but I think a big part of you knows that calling this shove is absolutely the correct play. If you were to really look at the range of an overaggro player on a draw heavy, pair on the board flop, it would be very wide. I mean, everybody seems to think that the guy "knows" you have a queen and is shoving accordingly. I would guess with a c/r here you almost never have a queen, and that he could be shoving naked tens, draws, big draws, JJ/KK/AA, and random air occasionally (but rarely). If you are playing to win at all, you have to call here everytime.
Yay, one of the people I was waiting to hear from. :)To be honest, my final decision was that it would be a worse fold then it would be a bad call if I lost. If the board comes QQ2 rainbow, it's easier to justify a fold, but not on such a draw heavy board. I'm a nit, and even I ship it in with a combo draw on that flop vs myself.And your range is pretty much what I put him on. People seem to be putting the villain on hands they would shove with, not hands your avg player would.
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I'm far from the tournament pro like some of you but based on description of villain I feel as though we're 60/40ish against his range and it would be a mistake to not get it in here.

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Hey PMJ,I would approach this hand a little differently.No. 1, for those who know me, I'm the new breed of value poker, the station. I rarely CR, I rarely RR preflop. In deep stack situations only of course. In online tourneys and short situations or fast structures, I play closer to what most consider "normal" strategy and you have to get your money in a more aggressive manner.But in deep stack situations, especially day 2 of the main event when I too was at 150k in this spot, I didn't reraise once all day preflop, and didn't checkraise once either. It's just not my style. Here's how I approach these situations, especially OOP. I defend my blinds a lot, especially against button/co/hj raisers. I don't try to take it away from them preflop because:1.) When you are really deep stacked, they can put a lot of pressure on you, so unless I'm positive I'm getting a fold when I'm marginally strong only, or I'm sure he isn't a strong enough player to put a re-reraise with nothing, I just call. 2.) I usually don't have much in the BB (one time dealer...AA?), so I'm more inclined to play small ball with my hands. I'm confident there's enough value even in the worst hands, because so few hands go to showdown at this stage of the game, so I rely on my betting and my ability to sniff out weakness or strength. 3.) I lead at a lot of pots, so I'm not too concerned with being OOP. I almost prefer it in cases like these against button raisers.So in your spot, I'm NEVER folding preflop the Qd9d to a button raiser as you described. I'm calling. When I flop trips there with a wide range of draws, I'm leading out to disguise my hand and induce a drawing hand, a strong T, or an overpair (unlikely) to call and/or playback. I'd actually prefer leading out at a less draw heavy board, because then I get the benefit of my hand looking like a medium PP while not having to worry about a deep stack semibluffing all his chips at me. So the second route I take, is to check-call.I'm not too worried about protecting my hand, or facing tough decisions on the turn, because I'm confident in being able to figure things out. Like you said, folding the best hand isn't necessarily a mistake, and it's not like you'd be openly folding the best hand, it'd be just a possibility. So I'd check call and see what develops. The most LIKELY move I make is to lead out at the turn when a blank rolls off. I don't want him drawing for free if he is drawing, he now has one less card to come so he's FAR less likely to semi-bluff (People want to raise their big draws on the flop, but they almost always shutdown and just call the turn). So I give them a slightly bad price. If I'm raised on the turn, depending on how much I have invested and how strong my read is, I decide to continue or not. Most of the time, if a blank rolls off and he still raises, i'm probably beat but call anyway. (ugh). But if I have a strong read, have a good amount of chips left (in the 100k range), and really feel good about my table, I'll fold here. It's just much more DIFFICULT for him to be on a move on the turn, then it is on the flop. To me, by check-calling, you are making your turn decision much EASIER and clearing up the puzzle for yourself for the SAME PRICE as a Check-raise. Notice check-calling, then leading 2/3 out on the TURN, costs you the same amount of chips, while allowing you peal off one card, stealing one drawing card from your opponent, still getting value, and analyzing the puzzle a second time with new information. In my view, a much clearer picture. When you think about a check-raise, your hand suddenly becomes the following:1.) It's clearer what you have, and you are unlikely boated.2.) You are protecting a medium strength queen or you are bluffing - Thus, a smart opponent can come to a realization that a RE-RERAISE allin semibluff is the best move against you, because if you are bluffing, he wins the pot, if you have a medium strength queen, you MIGHT fold (notice the amount of room you leave yourself in such a deep stack situation), if you call, he can still get there, and if he also currently has the best hand like a KQ, he'd play it the same way to protect against YOUR possible big draw.You have given yourself NO information and left yourself in a spot where you can only get reraised by the best hand and if you are called, could be walking right into a trap. I just hate the CR in these deep stack spots. You are basically going to either win the pot right there a big majority of the time, or you are going to be beat or put to a very tough decision.By controlling the pot, I think you have a better chance of getting value while protecting your stack, of making your opponent's decisions MORE difficult and CLEARER to the overall hand puzzle. By check-calling (which looks VERY VERY strong to many players), you get the benefit of representing a boat still, so even hands like QJ may suddenly shut down. Seriously, when you check-call and lead the turn, I've seen very strong hands just call me down. I still lose the pot, but I lose less and don't go broke. Also, the scare card YOU fear, may be the scare card that saves your butt. If he indeed has you beat and the scare card rolls off, you may find a check-check, even almost a check-it-down scenario, perhaps one small value bet on the river. That's ideal if you are way behind. I think we need to do more CALLING when we are either WAY ahead or WAY behind and worry less about protecting in a deep stack situation. That's the beauty of being deep stacked. Protection becomes less relevant imo.And as a sidenote: Given the way you chose to play it, I think you have to call and should not fault yourself for making such a play. Unless you have a really strong feel for the hand, I don't see how you can call preflop, CR on the flop with trips, and still manage to fold. That's the danger of draw-heavy boards, people do crazy things with their superdraws (as they probably should when they have fold equity) but also protect the hands that beat you just the same. i.e. No-mands land on a CR.I have nothing but respect for your game and think we could learn a good deal from each other. But that is how I have evolved, and I think it's how a lot of players are changing their game to adapt to the more aggressive fields.

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My opinion is not influenced by the results at all. Even if he won, I still think these situations are the ones that tarnish and otherwise serious run at millions. These are the hands that come up time and time again that devastate a player. Even if you can determine that 70 he has a huge draw 20 he has bigger Q and 10 hes lost his mind, you still have to let an aggressive player be aggressive. many more sitautions are going to arise, you have the ability to wait, but I think you have to seriously contemplate landmind avoidance and consider getting out of the way. You dont have to discuss your hand after the fact, you dont have to show, without being at the table and just taking your account on it, it looks like to me the aggressive player realizes you arent kidding around and may have a big draw yourself. Let the brigade come in and say folding is no way to win, i as a stranger am just of a different opinion. If you are going to exploit the situation that he probably has a big draw, then you have to exploit every edge vs. this opponent b/c you are "playing to win" do you call with AK if he shoves with J10 face up, type situation.

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