Biblical Prophecy

[Balloon guy 158]

Here is what I am going to do, put in prophecies that are in the Bible, and show the completion. I will try to limit each set to no more than 2 at a time, since there is nothing I skip faster than a 3 screen long post. Feel free to either comment how you think these prophecies could be a co-incidence, or made up...debate is always healthy.#1: God would care for the Jewish people.

Leviticus 26:44Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the LORD their God

Isaiah 66:22"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.

Zechariah 8:13As you have been an object of cursing among the nations, O Judah and Israel, so will I save you, and you will be a blessing. Do not be afraid, but let your hands be strong."

In the 4000 year history of the Jews, they have endured over 400 years of slavery, 1900 years without a home land, mass genocide attempts, and continuous persecution. Yet in 1948 their country was refounded and they have survived with their culture, beliefs and faith.There is no question that the miracle is the foretelling of this event, it is impossible to argue that this was written after the fact. And if the doubters are to be believed, and the Bible was written way after the time of Christ, by men, then there would have been clear reason to change this since they lost their homeland in 135 AD and were scattered for 1900 years.You'd think after 500 years or so, someone would have suggested maybe we should change these little promises of God that Israel would be preserved.

[Balloon guy 158]

#2 Jesus would come from the tribe of Judah and out of the town of Bethlehem.

Genesis 49:10The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the Ruler's staff from between His feet, until He comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is His.

"But you, Bethlehem, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." - Micah 5:2

In 1 BC Herod decided to count the Jewsish people, but in order to get an accurate count, he decided to make sure that each tribe went to a specific town. So he, Herod, chose the tribe of Judah to go to Bethlehem. If he had only chosen a different town, then Jesus would not have been born in the town foretold, 100s of years before His birth. Instead He would have been born 70 miles away, in Nazareth.And remember that Herod hated the Jews, and tried to kill the Messiah soon after Jesus was born, so he cannot be accused of wanting the promise to come true.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

There is no question that the miracle is the foretelling of this event, it is impossible to argue that this was written after the fact. And if the doubters are to be believed, and the Bible was written way after the time of Christ, by men, then there would have been clear reason to change this since they lost their homeland in 135 AD and were scattered for 1900 years.

I don't follow this part. No one claims that the prophecies of the Old Testament were written after Christ's death. It would be impossible to change the Old Testament (the Torah) after Christ's death since it had been around for so long and was so widely distributed. Many claim that parts of the New Testament were written long after Christ's death (on the order of a hundred years) and I would argue that the validity of Old Testament Jewish prophecy has little bearing on this claim.The problem with using biblical prophecy to prove the validity of the bible is that biblical claims can be accurate many times without being extremely convincing, but if they are wrong once, the results are devastating. In other words, if the "word of God" is wrong many times, as a skeptic I'm still open to debate but it the supposed infallible prophecy of God is wrong once, the it certainly can't have come directly from God.

[crowTrobot 2]

1. trivial. most established, distinct races of ancient humans have survived to modern day in one form or another.2. anything relating to jesus assumes the gospels are historically accurate and not written by authors who were well aware of OT prophecies of a jewish savior, and embellished or fabricated their versions of history to make jesus fit. in fact there's at least one verse (in matthew?) where the author writes outright that "jesus did so and so *in order* to fulfill prophecy". pretty suspicious.

[David_Nicoson 1]

#2 Jesus would come from the tribe of Judah and out of the town of Bethlehem.In 1 BC Herod decided to count the Jewsish people, . . .

Luke 1:In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.

but in order to get an accurate count, he decided to make sure that each tribe went to a specific town.

How does that help, really? :shrug: I'm not really making an argument here; I just don't get it.

So he, Herod, chose the tribe of Judah to go to Bethlehem. If he had only chosen a different town, then Jesus would not have been born in the town foretold, 100s of years before His birth. Instead He would have been born 70 miles away, in Nazareth.

This would be much more remarkable if the people writing the New Testament didn't have access to the prophecies. Supposing they were just making the whole thing up, would it make sense to contradict the prophecies? We're relying a lot on the New Testament itself here. It's not even clear from other sources that there was a city of Nazareth at the time of Jesus' birth.

And remember that Herod hated the Jews, . . .

Herod arguably was a Jew, though clearly with Roman backing.

and tried to kill the Messiah soon after Jesus was born, so he cannot be accused of wanting the promise to come true.

I believe the only source for this is the New Testament.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Here is what I am going to do, put in prophecies that are in the Bible, and show the completion. I will try to limit each set to no more than 2 at a time, since there is nothing I skip faster than a 3 screen long post. Feel free to either comment how you think these prophecies could be a co-incidence, or made up...debate is always healthy.#1: God would care for the Jewish people. In the 4000 year history of the Jews, they have endured over 400 years of slavery, 1900 years without a home land, mass genocide attempts, and continuous persecution. Yet in 1948 their country was refounded and they have survived with their culture, beliefs and faith.There is no question that the miracle is the foretelling of this event, it is impossible to argue that this was written after the fact. And if the doubters are to be believed, and the Bible was written way after the time of Christ, by men, then there would have been clear reason to change this since they lost their homeland in 135 AD and were scattered for 1900 years.You'd think after 500 years or so, someone would have suggested maybe we should change these little promises of God that Israel would be preserved.

Thanks for starting this BG. With you at the helm hopefully this will be a somewhat civil discussion.Just a few standards I will be applying (1) The text of the prohecy should not be ambigous (2) The prophecy was made before the event that fulfills the prophecy (3) The prophecy was made long enough before the event so that it is not simply stating an obvious future(4) The event actually happened. Using the New Testament to validate the Old is not going to work unless there is 'third party' corroborationAlso the Bible makes over 2000 prophecies, some of them so generic that they are not really prophecies, they are simple statements of the obvious. Given that, I expect you to get a few. Problem is, you have to get them all without any going wrong.Few points on this first lot:Firstly Crow pointed out its fairly trivial. Can't think of too many non-segregated modern races that have been 'destroyed'Second: Slavery, homelessness, genocide attempts, persecution : God caring for the Jews => oxymoronThirdly: I prefer Amos 9:14-9:1514 I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit.15 I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God.I would think that the Jews being uprooted out of the Gaza strip in the last 2 years, against their will, clearly makes this not a unfufilled prophecy but actually a false prophecy. So your very first set produces a failure and thus proves the Bible wrong . Whew that was quick

[KramitDaToad 0]

#2 Jesus would come from the tribe of Judah and out of the town of Bethlehem.In 1 BC Herod decided to count the Jewsish people, but in order to get an accurate count, he decided to make sure that each tribe went to a specific town. So he, Herod, chose the tribe of Judah to go to Bethlehem. If he had only chosen a different town, then Jesus would not have been born in the town foretold, 100s of years before His birth. Instead He would have been born 70 miles away, in Nazareth.And remember that Herod hated the Jews, and tried to kill the Messiah soon after Jesus was born, so he cannot be accused of wanting the promise to come true.

Using the rules I posted above...(1) The text of the prohecy should not be ambigous (2) The prophecy was made before the event that fulfills the prophecy (3) The prophecy was made long enough before the event so that it is not simply stating an obvious future(4) The event actually happened. Using the New Testament to validate the Old is not going to work unless there is 'third party' corroborationYour prophecy fails clearly on point (4) as others pointed out; there is no corroboration to support Jesus's birth.It also fails point (1), but that is a long post so I will only go into it if requested.As a few asides...You said: In 1 BC Herod decided to count the Jewsish peopleHerod died in 4BC. Herrod's involvement was to order the death of all male babies under the age of 2 in an attempt to kill the infant Jesus. This implies the birth of JC prior to 4BCDavid pointed out the census was ordered by Caeser AugustusYou said: but in order to get an accurate count, he decided to make sure that each tribe went to a specific town.As David pointed out this is supported by Luke, however he should have posted a few more versesLuke 2:1 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (2 This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.)3 And everyone went to his own town to register.Problem here is Quirinius was not appointed governor of Syria until 6 A.D.So your 2 accounts of the uncorroborated fulfillment of the prophecy actually contradict each other as to the year of birth of Jesus by a very large amount, especially given the supposed authors spent a lot of time with him. This adds a lot of weight to the fulfilment(s) being 'made-up'

[Balloon guy 158]

Good stuffThe arguement that the Jews were aware of the prophecies regarding Messiah and therefore massaged the truth to make Jesus fullfill the prophecies ignores that the leaders of the Jewish people rejected Christ. The Jewish are still waiting for the Messiah to come.The men that followed Christ were thrown out of towns, jailed, and eventually killed. So their motives to write a story that made them outcast would be misguided if thy knew they were writing a fiction story.

(1) The text of the prohecy should not be ambigous (2) The prophecy was made before the event that fulfills the prophecy (3) The prophecy was made long enough before the event so that it is not simply stating an obvious future(4) The event actually happened. Using the New Testament to validate the Old is not going to work unless there is 'third party' corroboration

#1 Truth is some of the prophecies are ambigous, I will try to avoid those for now.#2 For sure#3 Same as #2 isn't it? but nevertheless Yes.#4 I'm probably weakest here, never been a real fan of ancient history. I have read and heard men that are more learned than me, some things I have taken on faith that what they wrote is true. Let's not pretend I am the end all expert, nor are most of you. I'm sure you guys can correct me when I make a glaring error.However, if the New Testament is used to validate the Old and visa versa, this is a different source. The Bible books are written over a mulit thousand year spread, by 40+ different authrs, in 3 languages on 3 continents. They were not intended to be collected and put together, but they later were for ease and to stop the spread of heretical letters written by false people to push their agenda. However I will do my bestest to find 'trustworthy' sources written by a man to 'prove' the writings of the Creator of the Universe ( little positive spin there )Yorke wrote:

The problem with using biblical prophecy to prove the validity of the bible is that biblical claims can be accurate many times without being extremely convincing, but if they are wrong once, the results are devastating. In other words, if the "word of God" is wrong many times, as a skeptic I'm still open to debate but it the supposed infallible prophecy of God is wrong once, the it certainly can't have come directly from God.

I agree..one false prophecy, the Bible's authority is in question.Also, yes I blew many of the people, mixed Herod with Ceaser ( my favorite salad too) The real point is placing the tribe of Judah in Bethlehem, while having a Messiah called a Nazarene. I guess I won't be getting a call from TBN anytime soon to host my own show. ( good because I can't find the 40 gallon hair spray cans necessary to be on TBN )

[Balloon guy 158]

Ezekial 26: 3-43 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up. 4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

Alexander the Great after conquering the Greek nation states, brought his armies to Tyre. They retreated to an island. Alex tore down the city and made a causeway to the island, then destroyed it. So the entire city was destroyed and thrown into the ocean, leaving a "top of a rock" behind.Many small points to add about many nations etc. but for brevity let's start here.

[Balloon guy 158]

1. trivial. most established, distinct races of ancient humans have survived to modern day in one form or another.2. anything relating to jesus assumes the gospels are historically accurate and not written by authors who were well aware of OT prophecies of a jewish savior, and embellished or fabricated their versions of history to make jesus fit. in fact there's at least one verse (in matthew?) where the author writes outright that "jesus did so and so *in order* to fulfill prophecy". pretty suspicious.

#1Actually the opposite, most races have been destroyed. Sure there are people in Rome, but are they Romans? with the same gods, same dietary laws? same hats? Too say the survival of the Jewish people is anything short of amazing is an attempt to downplay the truth.Anytime you want to show me a people that still have the same language, same religious beliefs, same dietary/sanitation laws, etc. that survived without a country. Feel free.#2 responded to in previous post. But this will be a standard answer to discount each and every NT prophecy so lets' expand.Here's your arguement. Some guys decided thy needed a 'messiah' to unite the Jews against th Roman rule. So they fabricated the story of Christ to make it happen. These men went on to continue this lie for their entire lives, being murdered for their misguided faith, dying poor and without fame. And these same men wrote things like obey your government, pay your taxes, women are equal in God's eyes, be respectaful to your slaves, give to the poor, how you treat a stranger is important, the non-Jews are now part of God's chosen people. This has more logical problems than it explains.We can either have me cut and paste this answer every time you say they wrote the New Testament hundreds of years after, or we can shelve the timing of the writing of NT for another thread. I will be happy to start a more focused thread about the NT's birthday later. But as a quick answer, the destruction of the Jewish Temple was the single most relevant event that happened to the Jews from the time of Roman rule to..Mecina, and not a peep from most of the NT books makes a strong case that they were written pre 64 AD.

[crowTrobot 2]

The arguement that the Jews were aware of the prophecies regarding Messiah and therefore massaged the truth to make Jesus fullfill the prophecies ignores that the leaders of the Jewish people rejected Christ. The Jewish are still waiting for the Messiah to come.The men that followed Christ were thrown out of towns, jailed, and eventually killed. So their motives to write a story that made them outcast would be misguided if thy knew they were writing a fiction story.

assumes whomever is responsible for the canonical gospels actually were individual contemporary followers of jesus, and not just unrelated authors giving their own second-hand recounting of oral tradition, incorporating stories from earlier non-canonical works, and/or copying each other. almost all secular scholars argue that the evidence favors some combination of the latter, in which case the canonical gospel authors' motivations could have been anything.

[crowTrobot 2]

Sure there are people in Rome, but are they Romans?

uh..

Anytime you want to show me a people that still have the same language, same religious beliefs, same dietary/sanitation laws, etc. that survived without a country. Feel free.

the without a country thing is incidental. it's not unusal at all for populations of a race to maintain their identity as an embedded subculture apart from their country of origin. otherwise this is a trivial point - for example almost any hindu, buddhist, or muslim culture fits the bill. billions of people follow culturally-specific traditions/laws thousands of years old and speak languages tousands of years old every day.

Here's your arguement. Some guys decided thy needed a 'messiah' to unite the Jews against th Roman rule. So they fabricated the story of Christ to make it happen.

oversimplification. it's more likely the stories of jesus grew out of and were recounted from oral fable/tradition.

These men went on to continue this lie for their entire lives, being murdered for their misguided faith, dying poor and without fame.

no evidence the gospel authors were any of that.

makes a strong case that they were written pre 64 AD.

irrelevant. they could have been written 20 AD and it wouldn't change the point. the gospels don't have to have been written "hundreds" of years after the fact to have been embellished.

[solderz 0]

Jesus was born in Nazareth, not Bethlehem. This is why he is known as Jesus of Nazareth (it was the custom of the time to name people based on birth place; i.e. Joe of Sacramento). The bethlehem birth was used to match the scripture so he could be known as the savior and be compliant with the existing scripture. A testament to his efforts is the fact that we still discuss his birthing in a stable in bethlehem. Even though it is bs. This subject is a major bone of contention between historical biblical scholars and religious biblical scholars.Which one should you believe?

[KramitDaToad 0]

Good stuffThe arguement that the Jews were aware of the prophecies regarding Messiah and therefore massaged the truth to make Jesus fullfill the prophecies ignores that the leaders of the Jewish people rejected Christ. The Jewish are still waiting for the Messiah to come.

This speaks volumes. Assuming Jesus existed, the Jewish people were there and knew all the prophecies, yet they reject him. Obviously his ability to fulfil the OT prophecies wasn't good enough to convince first hand witnesses.Another possiblity where Jesus never existed has the NT being created with the purpose of founding a new religion for whatever motivation takes your fancy. What better than to create a messiah that fulfils the old prophecies and thus puts a theological end to the existing establishment.Only problem is Paul & Co made mistakes. One of which was assuming that the messiah being born of Bethlehem meant he would be born in the town of that name

The men that followed Christ were thrown out of towns, jailed, and eventually killed. So their motives to write a story that made them outcast would be misguided if thy knew they were writing a fiction story.

Again if we are arguing that a story is fictional you can't use facts purely in that story as proof of its validity without corroboration. This is a common claim without backing

Yorke wrote:I agree..one false prophecy, the Bible's authority is in question.

I gave you one in my first response. I appreciate you're getting swamped with answers here, but have a quick read and you can agree that the Bible is false and we can put an end to this and go drink beers.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Ezekial 26: 3-43 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up. 4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.Alexander the Great after conquering the Greek nation states, brought his armies to Tyre. They retreated to an island. Alex tore down the city and made a causeway to the island, then destroyed it. So the entire city was destroyed and thrown into the ocean, leaving a "top of a rock" behind.Many small points to add about many nations etc. but for brevity let's start here.

Ezekiel makes it blatantly clear that it is the army of Nebuchadnezzar that 'will' attack Tyre7 For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar , king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you.this happened prior to/during the authorship of Ezekiel.If you want to play your many nations card you are claiming the prophecy is "Many nations will attack Tyre in the future" which given its location in one of the most volatile regions in the world is akin to saying "The sun will come up tomorrow"Furrther more, Ezekiel 26 states this about Tyre:21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."Tyre still exists and is inhabited today (Tourist page here). Failed prophecy #2

[Vick07 0]

Heh... like I said before somewherethis isn't an discussion of prophecy, it's really just a "Well sorry but they probably just scribbled that in a couple hundred years later so I'm not gonna buy"

[Loismustdie 0]

Ezekiel makes it blatantly clear that it is the army of Nebuchadnezzar that 'will' attack Tyre7 For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar , king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you.this happened prior to/during the authorship of Ezekiel.If you want to play your many nations card you are claiming the prophecy is "Many nations will attack Tyre in the future" which given its location in one of the most volatile regions in the world is akin to saying "The sun will come up tomorrow"Furrther more, Ezekiel 26 states this about Tyre:21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."Tyre still exists and is inhabited today (Tourist page here). Failed prophecy #2

Sure, Tyre exists. Not as it once was, though. If God said he would destroy your house, and it would never be inhabited again, and then he burnt it down, and you were killed and your family and everything that was you was gone, and years later somebody came along and rebuilt... did he not still mess your world up, did he not do what he said he would. Your toast. Job completed. Still moving into my new place, I will give Balloon Guy a hand when I get a few spare hours. This one caught my eye because of it's simple nature.

[crowTrobot 2]

Heh... like I said before somewherethis isn't an discussion of prophecy, it's really just a "Well sorry but they probably just scribbled that in a couple hundred years later so I'm not gonna buy"

that's stupid. if you read the thread nobody said anything like that.

[Loismustdie 0]

that's stupid. if you read the thread nobody said anything like that.

Lol. I have never met you and have no idea what you look like but I picture a look of bothered disgust on your face.

[BigDMcGee 3,355]

#1Actually the opposite, most races have been destroyed. Sure there are people in Rome, but are they Romans? with the same gods, same dietary laws? same hats? Too say the survival of the Jewish people is anything short of amazing is an attempt to downplay the truth.Anytime you want to show me a people that still have the same language, same religious beliefs, same dietary/sanitation laws, etc. that survived without a country. Feel free.#2 responded to in previous post. But this will be a standard answer to discount each and every NT prophecy so lets' expand.

the gypsies and the hmoung, The laplanders or what ever they are called, the ones that raise the raindeer.. various indigenous tribes in the americas, like the innuit, and they souix. That's just off the top of my head. I know what you're saying, though, the jews survival and thrival is remarkable.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Sure, Tyre exists. Not as it once was, though. If God said he would destroy your house, and it would never be inhabited again, and then he burnt it down, and you were killed and your family and everything that was you was gone, and years later somebody came along and rebuilt... did he not still mess your world up, did he not do what he said he would. Your toast. Job completed.

You completely ignored the meat of my response, but I'm expecting a lot of that.Dealing with the sidebar you chose to look at:Reread verse 2121 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."It goes a lot further than stating Tyre would be destroyed. It says Tyre will be sought but never found. If you follow the tourist link I enclosed, people have sought the old Tyre and found it, they found the old site, the old buildings, the old causeway.When you search for a destroyed city this is what you try to find. Therefore those searching for Tyre have found it, therefore blatant false prophecy, therefore we've shown the bible to be false twice now

[KramitDaToad 0]

Heh... like I said before somewherethis isn't an discussion of prophecy, it's really just a "Well sorry but they probably just scribbled that in a couple hundred years later so I'm not gonna buy"

that's stupid. if you read the thread nobody said anything like that.

Here here.Vick07, I appreciate you haven't been here long, but after 18 posts youv'e yet to post anything of worth. Step out of the kiddie pool.

[Balloon guy 158]

I gave you one in my first response. I appreciate you're getting swamped with answers here, but have a quick read and you can agree that the Bible is false and we can put an end to this and go drink beers.

I don't drink so I guess I'm stuck argueing. It's alright, I like to argue

[Balloon guy 158]

Ezekiel makes it blatantly clear that it is the army of Nebuchadnezzar that 'will' attack Tyre7 For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar , king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you.this happened prior to/during the authorship of Ezekiel.If you want to play your many nations card you are claiming the prophecy is "Many nations will attack Tyre in the future" which given its location in one of the most volatile regions in the world is akin to saying "The sun will come up tomorrow"Furrther more, Ezekiel 26 states this about Tyre:21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."Tyre still exists and is inhabited today (Tourist page here). Failed prophecy #2

Guess I didn't finish the quotes with Isiah, which further predicted the destruction of tyre. Mostly I am trying to keep the posts shorter to prevent info overload.So Tyre was attacked, and later destroyed to the bedrock, by another country. And the destruction was complete. Now the arguement is whether a place is what God was punishing, or the people. If some pygmie women built a town on the same location, would that be the same thing as the Tyrienians living there?

[Balloon guy 158]

Thirdly: I prefer Amos 9:14-9:1514 I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit.15 I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God.I would think that the Jews being uprooted out of the Gaza strip in the last 2 years, against their will, clearly makes this not a unfufilled prophecy but actually a false prophecy. So your very first set produces a failure and thus proves the Bible wrong . Whew that was quick

By your definition if a single Jewish person is evicted from their apartment in Tel Aviv for non-payment of rent this disproves Amos?Sorry I overlooked this earlier. I am really bad about reading long posts. I'm only good at writing them. I know..Hypocrite