Lets Discuss "the Clock"

[Vandees 0]

I've got to see what everyone thinks about this. I was reading the live main event updates, and it seems like some of the hands take forever. People "go into the tank" all the time. In fact, on the ESPN table, they played 6 hands in 36 minutes, and one hand I read about was over 10 minutes!I understand that some decisions are difficult and worth millions of dollars, you need some time, etc. But 4-5 minutes or longer? What would you think about that long, honestly? I think there should be a "3/5 minute rule". People have 3 minutes to decide on their hand at one street, 5 minutes total for a hand. Would it be totally poor etiquette for a player (I won't say me because I have zero chance of ever playing a big tourney that matters) to tell the table at the start, "after 3 minutes I call the clock, no matter who you are or what the situation, you have 3 minutes", and then proceed to do it, whether in a hand or not? Because I feel like this is what someone should do in a big tournament. Especially around the bubble, 2 hours to play 14 hands of poker is freaking stupid. Does this bother anyone else or is it "just part of the game" for you? Something needs to be done with this, there is nothing you can think about in 6 minutes you can't do in 2-3. In fact, usually within 30 seconds you've decided what you're going to do with the hand and are just posturing. Keep in mind this isnt just big tourneys. I played in a 10FPP turbo on stars the other day and people were actually using their timebank of 1 minute to prevent their blinds to make the money.....for like 6 cents....and I'm not even kidding.OK done rambling. Stop acting like you're thinking all you "tank" pansies and play cards

[Suited_Up 2]

It definitely got bad deep in every single tourney at the WSOP. It was getting pretty ridiculous. Every hand someone had to hem and haw over a fold they knew they were gonna make.

[donk4life 34]

You make your decision within the first 3 seconds.. I stand by that..

[NoSup4U 0]

They do have a rule for this, its called calling the clock on a guy? Mark

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I've got to see what everyone thinks about this. I was reading the live main event updates, and it seems like some of the hands take forever. People "go into the tank" all the time. In fact, on the ESPN table, they played 6 hands in 36 minutes, and one hand I read about was over 10 minutes!I understand that some decisions are difficult and worth millions of dollars, you need some time, etc. But 4-5 minutes or longer? What would you think about that long, honestly? I think there should be a "3/5 minute rule". People have 3 minutes to decide on their hand at one street, 5 minutes total for a hand. Would it be totally poor etiquette for a player (I won't say me because I have zero chance of ever playing a big tourney that matters) to tell the table at the start, "after 3 minutes I call the clock, no matter who you are or what the situation, you have 3 minutes", and then proceed to do it, whether in a hand or not? Because I feel like this is what someone should do in a big tournament. Especially around the bubble, 2 hours to play 14 hands of poker is freaking stupid. Does this bother anyone else or is it "just part of the game" for you? Something needs to be done with this, there is nothing you can think about in 6 minutes you can't do in 2-3. In fact, usually within 30 seconds you've decided what you're going to do with the hand and are just posturing. Keep in mind this isnt just big tourneys. I played in a 10FPP turbo on stars the other day and people were actually using their timebank of 1 minute to prevent their blinds to make the money.....for like 6 cents....and I'm not even kidding.OK done rambling. Stop acting like you're thinking all you "tank" pansies and play cards

While I do agree that it can get frustrating when a game has a slow pace, it sucks the energy from the game, however Poker is also a social game. Especially Live Poker. Being a "pansy" goes both ways. If you abuse your right to call a clock, you will turn the entire table against you. Good luck with that. Calling the clock is generally considered a right that is not to be abused. The floor will revoke such rights if you are abusing them.

[zimmer4141 0]

They do have a rule for this, its called calling the clock on a guy? Mark

They have the rule, the issue is that you're seen as a prick if you call a clock on somebody almost no matter how long they take.

[JackArnal 0]

This drives me up the wall. I played in a tournament on FTP last night, and it got to the point where two short stacks at my table used their time banks and their disconnect time. That being said, I'm not sure I like a time limit for big tournaments like the ME. I'm sure some of those lengthy decisions are legit, and I wouldn't want to force someone to make a huge decision 30 second earlier than they would have otherwise. I would like to see some sort of repeat offender rule though. Maybe after a delay or two the dealer or other players have a right to call the floor to inspect your hand. If it is a clear fold, then the floor can give you a penalty. A penalty at that point would be deadly for a short stack, so I would think that would light a fire. Too harsh?

[king1305 0]

This drives me up the wall. I played in a tournament on FTP last night, and it got to the point where two short stacks at my table used their time banks and their disconnect time. That being said, I'm not sure I like a time limit for big tournaments like the ME. I'm sure some of those lengthy decisions are legit, and I wouldn't want to force someone to make a huge decision 30 second earlier than they would have otherwise. I would like to see some sort of repeat offender rule though. Maybe after a delay or two the dealer or other players have a right to call the floor to inspect your hand. If it is a clear fold, then the floor can give you a penalty. A penalty at that point would be deadly for a short stack, so I would think that would light a fire. Too harsh?

What one person deems a "clear fold" could be a tough decision for someone else. Without knowing the specific tendencies/situations of the game play, how is the floor supposed to come over and make a decision when the player in question can have been playing with his opponent for hours, if not days?

[hblask 1]

I think they should do it similar to online, where you get a certain amount for each hand (say 30 seconds) and then after that you have a bank where you get a certain amount for the whole tournament, maybe 5-10 minutes. You start using that time automatically after 30 seconds no matter what, whether anyone calls you on it or not. Seriously, you can replay in your head every action in the hand 20 times in about 3 minutes... The biggest problem: how to implement this. Give everyone chess clocks? Short of that, I don't see how to enforce this... so your 3/5 rule may be the best you can do. Enforced by the dealer every time. But the big names would never go for that, because they like their camera time.Of course, I don't play live because I suck at that worse than I do online, so do whatever the hell you want, you donkeys.

[zimmer4141 0]

Whenever I think of long, agonizing decisions in the ME I think back to Tiffany Williamson vs. Sheiky.

[king1305 0]

Whenever I think of long, agonizing decisions in the ME I think back to Tiffany Williamson vs. Sheiky.

me too.

[timsta007 0]

Very true... I was just thinking about that hand as well.AA > KJoWhat a dumb ****.

[Vandees 0]

I understand that its a prick move to be "that guy" at the table, especially when you're not in a hand. But I still think there should be a set time limit, say 3 minutes.Can anyone here honestly say they've EVER, and I mean EVER, thought for more than 2 minutes on a hand? If so, I want to know what you were thinking about and if you changed your mind or went with your read. I guarantee it was the latter.

[JackArnal 0]

What one person deems a "clear fold" could be a tough decision for someone else. Without knowing the specific tendencies/situations of the game play, how is the floor supposed to come over and make a decision when the player in question can have been playing with his opponent for hours, if not days?

When I say clear fold, I'm talking about hands like 72 UTG taking 4 minutes to act.

[Bizzle 0]

Can anyone here honestly say they've EVER, and I mean EVER, thought for more than 2 minutes on a hand? If so, I want to know what you were thinking about and if you changed your mind or went with your read. I guarantee it was the latter.

Yes. About a billion factors. Changed my mind. My initial thoughts were wrong.

[givalitl 0]

I do hate it when people intentionally stall at the end of tournaments, but as far as people taking a lot of time because they have a tough decision, I don't see anything wrong with that. I guess it's pretty hard to tell a difference, but if it was clear he was just wasting time, I wouldn't have a problem calling a clock. I also don't really enjoy the players who's routine includes long pauses, long chip counts, etc... on every single hand!

[A_Bullets_A 0]

I play a lot live and rarely play online so I'm probably used to the slow players a lot more, but I've never called the clock on anyone. I probably never will. I've always thought that if someone has a tough decision they should be able to think about it as long as they need. Some people really are pretty rediculous though with how long they take...The 20-minute Hand: Bill Edler vs. Jeff BanghartBill Edler raises to $150,000 and Jeff "Mr. Rain" Banghart makes the call, along with the big blind. The flop comes K Q 8 and Banghart bets $300,000. The big blind folds and Edler thinks for awhile before making it $650,000 to go. Now Banghart goes into the tank, coming up after a few minutes to call. The turn is the 6 and Edler contemplates his next move for a few minutes between sips of coffee before betting out $600,000. Banghart now stands up and thinks out loud for awhile. Banghart announces that Edler must have a hand like A J. He then asks Edler if he feels like gambling. Throughout the questioning, Edler doesn't flinch. "I don't think I can fold," says Banghart, as he decides to push all in for $1,180,000 more. Edler asks for a count and then takes about eight minutes to count out his stack and make a decision. Edler would be left with about $2,100,000 if he folded. After finally making up his mind, Edler says, "Well it couldn't go to a nicer guy," and makes the call. Edler turns over 6 5 for bottom pair and a flush draw. Banghart is in the lead with K J. The rail is very vocal about how surprising it is that these two don't have bigger hands. The river brings the J giving Banghart two pair he didn't want and Edler his flush. Edler and Banghart shake hands congratulating each other graciously before Edler goes to work on stacking his massive pot. Banghart is our 41st-place finisher.

[seemorenuts 0]

I wonder how much excellence you want in this game.The average chess move takes 3 minutes under tournament conditions, with occasional instances where almost 2 hours is needed to find the right move.We know poker is much more complicated than chess is.I realize the danger of comparing the two, but I can personally state that for each extra minute I have, I learn more about my opponent's holdings even if he just sits there, and even if he hasn't looked at his hole cards (in many if not all instances).I've mentioned this before, and others just joke about it.I've also mentioned in an ancient post where at Brantford's $810 entry tourney with 100 players, the supervisors were not only oblivious to 5 players complaining about 2 old geezers cheating by showing each other their cards and softplaying, but when I continued to bring this to the attention to the supervisor named Dwayne (short, stupid looking guy); he acted like I was insulting him personally and proceeded to call time on me (without a single complaint ever voiced by any player at my table, EVER) for the rest of the tournament. He probably mistakenly thought I was "Hollywooding" but I swear I can tell what people either have or will do the longer I observe them, and unfortunately this was limited to 60-90 seconds per necessary instance.I had an M between 1 and 3 for about 2-2.5 hours straight, I took 48 minutes to win my first hand, and I finally had an above average stack for the first time after 5 hours and 5 minutes; and bubbled to one of the cheaters AK vs JJ after correctly sensing that the original raiser had a weak ace (he told me A9o later). To repeat the old story, the two cheaters got to sit beside each other at the final table (lol, quality tournament directing) and one came 10th, the other came 2nd or 1st, I didn't stick around to find out. The guy who sat to my right the whole tournament also came 1st or 2nd (he had the biggest stack HU) and swore without sarcasm that I had to teach him how I did that (survive with perfect timing) for so long. Lol, I didn't cash but I was very proud of my play that day.

[Bizzle 0]

They have the rule, the issue is that you're seen as a prick if you call a clock on somebody almost no matter how long they take.

Quoted Zim to make sure that I address what he said.The problem with assigning a maximum amount of time to make decisions live is that it completely ignores the complexity and magnitude of the decisions that are being made. One of my favorite examples of this is Ferguson, whose pace regarding the decisions he makes slows as a tournament proceeds along. In the early stages, his preflop decisions are made basically instantly, but as the tournament gets deeper, he gets his cards, looks at them, protects them, and then makes his decision in terms of raising/folding. I doubt anyone who has played with him early in a tournament would ever call him a slow player, or a staller, but someone who has played with him late in a tournament knows that he isn't exactly the quickest player out there.So, when a player gets deep in a tournament, like the main event, are they going to slow down decisions when they aren't facing an UTG raise or a similar easy situation? Yes, and they are most definitely correct in doing so. At these points in the tournament, basically every decision has a quantifiable value in the thousands of dollars, so not taking the amount of time a player needs to come up with the decision they want to make is generally going to cost them a significant amount of money. Is this going to increase the average hand time? Yes.As for calling the clock on someone, the reason that you look like a prick for doing so is that the clock is called so indiscriminately in live games. I've had the clock called on me several times where I hadn't taken more than a minute all day on a decision, finally get one that is going to take me longer than 2 minutes to get my head around, and all of a sudden someone has decided that because I'm taking longer than 2 minutes I must have a limit placed on me.

[hblask 1]

We know poker is much more complicated than chess is.

*cough* *cough*.....

[king1305 0]

Fold Preflop. Problem solved.

[dna4ever 2]

Guys/Gals ... racial slurs, joking or not, will absolutely NOT be tolerated on this forum. I have edited out this page and hope to see some better judgement in the future.

[dna4ever 2]

bizzle - i laughed but not the time or place

[Bizzle 0]

bizzle - i laughed but not the time or place

The Nabisco company is upset that you deleted my post about saltines and will be suing the site for discrimination.*too far face?*

[13CARDS 0]

... Especially around the bubble, 2 hours to play 14 hands of poker is freaking stupid.

If you are remarking on how long it took to burst the money bubble at the 2007 WSOP Man Event (15 hands in 115 mintes), I hope you can find time to learn about "hand for hand" play. Maybe that will calm your boiling blood a little.