Playing Back At Small Ball

[Young Turk 0]

I'm new to the forums; I'm an 18 year old poker player from London, UK. I don't play professionally, but am a profitable player. I play games online (Ultimate Bet and Full Tilt), at some London card clubs as well as at 2 home games. One of these home games in particular has proven difficult to handle. This table tends to play 5 to 7 handed and congregates fairly regularly in the week. It's a £20 max buy-in NLHE ring game with £0.10/0.20 blinds (that roughly comes to $0.40/$80); I go there mainly for the good company, especially as I usually play for stakes double that. There are 2 regulars at this home game who are great practitioners of small ball, and I was wondering how I should approach playing them. I've been lurking at these forums for a while, and there seem to be some good poker theorists here whose advice I'd appreciate - despite the fact that there are also a great many who cause me to shake my head dismissively with the following facial expression: .One answer I don't want is, play ABC poker and try and trap them with the goodies. Unfortunately, as someone who knows much about the effective use of small ball, they can slither out of traps very easily without much damage. The only path I see is to constantly play back at them and end up on 4th/5th level thinking...it's what I'm doing at the moment but it's very hard to consistently re-re-raise on a bluff. I generally try and join them in feasting on the others, but it can get quite tiring. This is easily the toughest table I play at; I find the internet is the easiest feeding ground since a lot of tables feature a mixture of fish and rocks - which is great if you're playing small ball since you can overcome both.Well, thanks for your time and hopefully I can get a nice concise 'How to Play Back at Small Ball' guide.

[dbl_j_22 0]

Don't let them make their hands for their small ball cheap prices.Don't get suckered in and pay off their big hands on their small ball milking bets.You can manuever around p layers playing small ball and if they are better at reading you and can usually get the best of you then don't get caught up in fps against them, theres other players at the table to make money from.But we want to get involved, we want to be able to beat every player, this has always been my mentality, and Im sure its yours. I know you didn't want an ABC answer, but there are a lot of basic strategies to really incorporate into your game to dismantle a small ball player. One of the most obvious is to really punish them when you have POSITION on them. There is absolutely no need to get fancy oop, keep that range tightened up because when you do make calls against them you're postflop decisions oop are going to get much easier.Also get some hollywooding into your game. Think and study your opponents on hands where you don't have a decision but they are putting in bets and make them get the wrong read off of you, ie you don't have a decision but make it seem like you do. Some people don't like slowing down the game, but there are key spots to make your opponent sweat. You want to be throwing off their reads, sometimes its easier to play against someone who thinks they are good and can outplay the table then it is against someone that is just playing straightforward tag. The reason is that you can, and need to, give off false reads. They make money by reading the hand and the player correctly, anytime you send the wrong signals and they go with their read, you are going to make money. Also you have to try and pick up on any type of pattern, who is raising who's bb, who is aware of position, who isn't. Are the small baller betters mainly firing chips in or out of position, what flop textures are they betting, are they always betting the same amounts or can you get information from those. Just anything you can think that relates to their hand, you need to pick up on.GL at the tables theres obv tons more, and it does get sick as you get into the higher levels of thinking but thats why this game is great. Figure them out, read into their soul, and you'll be raking in the chips.

[Lavitz 0]

I'm new to the forums; I'm an 18 year old poker player from London, UK. I don't play professionally, but am a profitable player. I play games online (Ultimate Bet and Full Tilt), at some London card clubs as well as at 2 home games. One of these home games in particular has proven difficult to handle. This table tends to play 5 to 7 handed and congregates fairly regularly in the week. It's a £20 max buy-in NLHE ring game with £0.10/0.20 blinds (that roughly comes to $0.40/$80); I go there mainly for the good company, especially as I usually play for stakes double that. There are 2 regulars at this home game who are great practitioners of small ball, and I was wondering how I should approach playing them. I've been lurking at these forums for a while, and there seem to be some good poker theorists here whose advice I'd appreciate - despite the fact that there are also a great many who cause me to shake my head dismissively with the following facial expression: .One answer I don't want is, play ABC poker and try and trap them with the goodies. Unfortunately, as someone who knows much about the effective use of small ball, they can slither out of traps very easily without much damage. The only path I see is to constantly play back at them and end up on 4th/5th level thinking...it's what I'm doing at the moment but it's very hard to consistently re-re-raise on a bluff. I generally try and join them in feasting on the others, but it can get quite tiring. This is easily the toughest table I play at; I find the internet is the easiest feeding ground since a lot of tables feature a mixture of fish and rocks - which is great if you're playing small ball since you can overcome both.Well, thanks for your time and hopefully I can get a nice concise 'How to Play Back at Small Ball' guide.

I really don't think you should be on 4th/5th level thinking against these kinds of players, and you should almost never be re-re-raising on a bluff. There are numerous reasons for this. One is that you're playing at low limits so you're going to have a real hard time getting people to lay down big hand. They won't be beyond first/second level thinking. Also, the players playing in this small of a game probably aren't the best so they're not going to make hero laydowns for $50 pots. Another reason is that if you're putting in any kind of rereraise bluff then not only does the villian have a big hand to be reraising you in the first place, but it will be incorrect usually for him to fold because after his reraise then your further reraise, there is a massive amount of money in the pot, giving him great odds usually. "Small ball" usually refers to tourney but as for this cash game I'd assume the players you're referring to play tight/passive and emphasize pot control. If that is the case then they are rarely reraising you without a stellar hand so I recommend staying away from the crazy bluffs. As for my advice on how to play them? Use position and raise their limps constantly. C-Bet them almost always and if it appears they're weak, fire the second barrel on the turn. Also, bet scare cards if they call your original bet on a rags board. If an A or K shows up after you c-bet a 10 high flop then fire again. If you think you have them dominated and they have little chance for improvement, fire down 2/3 pot or 1/2 pot instead of full pot because they will be much more likely to call. If they show aggression or interest in a pot then get out if you don't have a strong hand. These kinds of players aren't looking to play big pots without big hands.

[sabes99 0]

the easiest thing to do is to create big pots, sometimes with the goods and sometimes without...you will catch them without a hand often when they are making small bluffs, and keep picking up chips that way...just mix it up and pick your spots carefully, if you feel like they might be weak then pouncethe major downside to this strategy is that when they have a hand, they will trap you for a lot of chips, so it's high risk, and forcing your opponents to play either high risk poker or overly conservative poker is one of the major advantages to small ball

[No_Neck 0]

I think you need to start watching their bet sizes in relation to the pot, often times provide a lot of valuable information. Small ball is hard to play and it is even harder to play against.

[NoBBiR 0]

I think you need to start watching their bet sizes in relation to the pot, often times provide a lot of valuable information. Small ball is hard to play and it is even harder to play against.

I think this is dead on. Picking up on their betting patterns is key. You really have to keep playing back at them a lot with nothing. The best way to get money from a small ball player is to play your big hands the exact same as you would you bluffs and moves and try not to get caught making moves . When someone wants to play small ball, don't let them. Always make it too costly for them to play that style against you. 3 and 4 betting their 2.5 raises pre is an excellent way to do this. Don't let them raise it preflop with hands like 67s and outplay people. Make bigger than average raises on them when you have position and hand (or not necessarily a hand :]). It discourages them from wanting to play with you because they know you are not going to let them fish with small bets. Picking your spots to float/make moves and mixing up your game hardcore is a great thing to do against these players.I think the thing you have to realize the most is that re-re-raising them on a bluff is not a bad idea. You can't worry about being embarassed when they catch you occasionally, because sometimes it's going to happen. You just have to play with your guts, and trust your reads.

[mtdesmoines 2]

I think you need to start watching their bet sizes in relation to the pot, often times provide a lot of valuable information.

Exactly. Small baller bets creep upward when they have a monster.