Off Season Discussion Thread

[Cappy37 0]

I guess I'm buying into the Oden hype, I think he's gonna be sick. Stoudemire I think is really good, not sold on him being completely healthy either, I'm kind of scared he turns into Shawn Kemp somewhere down the line in a few years.I've never been a huge fan of Paul, not now or in college, but his numbers are always pretty solid.

I don't think Oden knows enough ladies to turn into Shawn Kemp. ;)I think it's mildly hilarious how people are talking about basketball being "saved" in the Pacific Northwest.. Portland gave away their best scorer and only battle-tested low post scoring presence. Seattle watched *both* their 20+ scorers disappear and two rooks show up in their place. Neither of these teams is going to make waves soon.. If Oden and Durant deliver what they are expected to rookie season Oden is still < Randolph and Durant/Green < Allen/Lewis.The reason the media and coaches are so high on Chris Paul is because he is a true point guard who can also drive and create/finish. It's the same type of logic as to why you have Carmello so low on your board: SF who can score and occasionally hit the boards are a dime a dozen.. True point guards that can hack it at the NBA level are few and far between. And the same infernal concept that makes teams forgoe "sure things" every July and draft some seven foot stiff with tremendous upside... But I digress.

[Cappy37 0]

Hi, I'm 7'5" and Chinese, put me on your list.

The Chinese Embassy called, they are looking for you... But yeah, Yao definitely on there.

Also, maybe throw Luol Deng down the bottom.

If Boozer/Bosh are supposed to be "tied" I gotta put Gordon/Deng on the list, together as well.. Saw Gorden twice in the Rose Garden now, and when he wants to take over a game late, he's just f'n breathtakingly unstoppable. Seriously.. Sometimes you can put a 23 on the jersy and 3/4 of the crowd would fail the Pepsi Challenge. We may be talking about Ben Gordon like we talk about Arenas in a couple of years. If I'm the Lakers and I was offered that crazy package for Kobe with Gordon in it, I'd seriously have to consider it. It'd take a couple years to lure all the pieces to LA to fully rebuild, but I'd want Gordon a part of it, even over Deng, even tho Luol is easily more of a complete player.

[tskillz187 0]

Hi, I'm 7'5" and Chinese, put me on your list.Also, maybe throw Luol Deng down the bottom.

Really? For the next 10 years? I don't see it. He's just....so....Chinese. J/K.I think Deng/Gordon/HinrichBargnani/Montae Ellis/Brandon Roy Are like the next two tiers (I'm definitely missing players here, Tony Parker belongs somewhere), I see Yao fizzling within 5 years and I don't think he's huge right now, I'd take 15 guys over him to start my franchise with right now if it were for just the year.Edit: I LOVE Josh Howard and would throw him possibly in the top 10.

[tskillz187 0]

We may be talking about Ben Gordon like we talk about Arenas in a couple of years. I'd take Gordon over Arenas right now. Both volume shooters but I like Gordon's tenacity more and both are clutch.

[tskillz187 0]

I don't think Oden knows enough ladies to turn into Shawn Kemp.

I meant the Kemp thing for Stoudemire. And he just may!

[princeof56k 0]

Really? For the next 10 years? I don't see it. He's just....so....Chinese. J/K.I see Yao fizzling within 5 years and I don't think he's huge right now, I'd take 15 guys over him to start my franchise with right now if it were for just the year.

Yao was 26 years old last year, and most centers are still effective until they're 33 or 34. After they fall fast. So Yao probably has a good 7-8 solid years left.And Yao is absolutely a top guy right now. It goes beyond stats (which are still excellent btw). Opposing teams change their whole defensive strategy just for him. Yao has improved every year, and I think we will see that again this year. One of the espn gurus (I think it was Hollinger) listed Yao as one of the few players worth a max deal.

[tskillz187 0]

Time to try for 15 guys over Yao...(in no specific order)McGradyKobeShaqDuncanGarnettAmareNashNowitzkiBoozerDwight HowardBoshWadeMeloLeBronBillupsParkerDeron WilliamsJermaine OnealI guess some of those are arguable but not too many IMO. I think Yao will be solid for another 5 years then dwindle, he already is not a presence on D, soon he will be a liability.Who changes there game for Yao? I'm just guessing but I thought the Rockets had a better record with Dikembe out there than him and Boozer just made him look silly in the playoffs. McGrady + star can get past 1st round, Yao is just a little short of that IMO.

[Cappy37 0]

We may be talking about Ben Gordon like we talk about Arenas in a couple of years. I'd take Gordon over Arenas right now. Both volume shooters but I like Gordon's tenacity more and both are clutch.

Gordon's gotta do it in the post season though.. That Wiz-Cav series a couple years back where Lebron and Arenas just went back and forth for 40ish a night for the whole series (multiple breath-taking OTs, too) should be shown weekly on ESPN Classic. All Gordon is truly missing is that breakthrough playoff performance. Given the team they are fielding this year, this should be his time to shine. Still wish they had *anyone* in the front court who could legitimately put up 15 a night to take some of the load off of Deng/Heinrich/Gordon.

[Cappy37 0]

Time to try for 15 guys over Yao...(in no specific order)McGradyKobeShaqDuncanGarnettAmareNashNowitzkiBoozerDwight HowardBoshWadeMeloLeBronBillupsParkerDeron WilliamsJermaine OnealI guess some of those are arguable but not too many IMO. I think Yao will be solid for another 5 years then dwindle, he already is not a presence on D, soon he will be a liability.Who changes there game for Yao? I'm just guessing but I thought the Rockets had a better record with Dikembe out there than him and Boozer just made him look silly in the playoffs. McGrady + star can get past 1st round, Yao is just a little short of that IMO.

The only thing to argue is there could easily be 40 names up there ahead of Yao. But to be fair, Yao is still hella young. He's been significantly better each season in the league, and as soon as he finds a little mean streak for his demeanor, he'll be the man we were waiting for. You are 100% right, btw.. *no one* changes their game for Yao. Someday perhaps, but not now.Total sidenote: Anyone else pulling for a Milwaukee-Houston trade to bring Yi and Yao together? Whats the downside here? Who wouldn't pay to see that?

[princeof56k 0]

The only thing to argue is there could easily be 40 names up there ahead of Yao. But to be fair, Yao is still hella young. He's been significantly better each season in the league, and as soon as he finds a little mean streak for his demeanor, he'll be the man we were waiting for. You are 100% right, btw.. *no one* changes their game for Yao. Someday perhaps, but not now.Total sidenote: Anyone else pulling for a Milwaukee-Houston trade to bring Yi and Yao together? Whats the downside here? Who wouldn't pay to see that?

I couldnt disagree more. Yao is one of the few guys in the league that gets doubled without the ball. Seriousely, their whole defensive approach is built around stopping Yao, not McGrady. I think even Shaq stated that the two best post players in the game were Duncan and Yao.And I really want to see the 40 names ahead of Yao. I dont think that's possible. Even then I disagree with the list given. I think he's easily ahead of half the people on that list. It's obvious Yao has passed Shaq at this point. But if you're willing to take Parker or Billups ahead of Yao, I dont what to tell you. As far as trades go, Yao is one of the few players in the league that's untouchable.Some response to other comments... Yao's not a liability on defense. He's not a great defensive player. He's just not that quick. But he's not a defensive liability. He doesnt block a ton of shots, but just having him down there is a huge asset.During the Jazz-Rockets series, Boozer went off. There's no doubt about it. But Boozer went at Yao correctly. Pulling him away from the basket, and using quickness against his size. The fact that Yao had to guard Boozer in the first place is more an indication of Houston's weak power forwards rather than anything against Yao. And lost in the whole series was that Yao countered Boozer on the other end having a good series himself averaging 25/10.BTW, I'm not that much in favor of seeing a Yao/Yi combo. Mainly because I dont think Yi will be that great.

[tskillz187 0]

You live in Houston so I think this means two things 1. You know more about their team than I do.2. You cloud some of it by being a fan.I don't watch enough games to say definitively that teams don't change their D for Yao, but it doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that Yao is better than McGrady or that teams just let him get off? There may be all these guys in the lane, seemingly doubling Yao, because they don't want McGrady slashing to the hoop. Also, you can't stop McGrady and it has been proven that having him go off isn't enough to beat your team, so you might as well contain the second best player. And more McGrady is the best tough shot taker (Sorry Kobe you're too good at getting yourself open) in the league.I didnt say Yao was a liability on D, just that he will be soon. Shaq on that same team beat the Jazz last yr, no question about it. Parker/Billups + decent big man (Nene, Camby, Kaman) someone in that mold are wayyy better than Alston + Yao and they get by the Jazz again.I also think Yi is trash, if Yi was any good China wouldn't get crushed everytime in World basketball games. Someone on NBA.com was saying ex-NBAer Wang Zhi Zhi was the best player on the team in Vegas camp.

[Jadaki 0]

Steve Francis signs with the Rockets. I think thats a good fit all the way around. Miami offered him more money and he turned them down.Suns ship Thomas and swap some picks with Seattle. Seems weird they just gave up their best post defender.

[mcpickl 0]

Time to try for 15 guys over Yao...(in no specific order)McGradyKobeShaqDuncanGarnettAmareNashNowitzkiBoozerDwight HowardBoshWadeMeloLeBronBillupsParkerDeron WilliamsJermaine OnealI guess some of those are arguable but not too many IMO. I think Yao will be solid for another 5 years then dwindle, he already is not a presence on D, soon he will be a liability.Who changes there game for Yao? I'm just guessing but I thought the Rockets had a better record with Dikembe out there than him and Boozer just made him look silly in the playoffs. McGrady + star can get past 1st round, Yao is just a little short of that IMO.

Weird list, who starts a franchise for a year? The XFL?anyways...Games Yao started: Houston 32-16Games Dikembe started: Houston 19-13bad guessIf you want to go by how a guy looked in one playoff series this year, I guess you have to take Dirk off the list too, no?I disagree with quite a few guys on this list, but having Billups, Parker and especially a fossilizing Jermaine O'Neal ahead of Yao is absurd.

[tskillz187 0]

Weird list, who starts a franchise for a year? The XFL?anyways...Games Yao started: Houston 32-16Games Dikembe started: Houston 19-13bad guessIf you want to go by how a guy looked in one playoff series this year, I guess you have to take Dirk off the list too, no?I disagree with quite a few guys on this list, but having Billups, Parker and especially a fossilizing Jermaine O'Neal ahead of Yao is absurd.

Guess Skip Bayless got in my head about the records. I picked the for a year as an example of right now. I already listed next 10 years players, that doesn't mean I wouldnt take Kobe and Nash right now. Yao is far down that list to me, but it's not proveable. I don't even like Parker but he has been an all-star the past two years and was just the Finals MVP, saying that he is better than someone who is the second best player on a team that has never made it out of the first round is not absurd.I think Yao fits much better with this list: Elton Brand, Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Paul Pierce, Luol Deng, Josh Howard, Joe Johnson, Allen Iverson, Baron Davis, Ginobili, Barbosa, Marion, Artest, Kidd, Jermaine ONealThan with this list: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, LeBron, McGrady, Melo, Wade, Boozer, Deron Williams, Bosh, Nash, NowitzkiEdit: Nowitzki will continue to have tons of trouble scoring on and guarding 6'8'' big athletic players, and Yao will continue to have trouble playing smaller quicker skilled players as well. Those situations weren't flukes.

[mcpickl 0]

Guess Skip Bayless got in my head about the records. I picked the for a year as an example of right now. I already listed next 10 years players, that doesn't mean I wouldnt take Kobe and Nash right now. Yao is far down that list to me, but it's not proveable. I don't even like Parker but he has been an all-star the past two years and was just the Finals MVP, saying that he is better than someone who is the second best player on a team that has never made it out of the first round is not absurd.I think Yao fits much better with this list: Elton Brand, Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Paul Pierce, Luol Deng, Josh Howard, Joe Johnson, Allen Iverson, Baron Davis, Ginobili, Barbosa, Marion, Artest, Kidd, Jermaine ONealThan with this list: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, LeBron, McGrady, Melo, Wade, Boozer, Deron Williams, Bosh, Nash, NowitzkiEdit: Nowitzki will continue to have tons of trouble scoring on and guarding 6'8'' big athletic players, and Yao will continue to have trouble playing smaller quicker skilled players as well. Those situations weren't flukes.

you keep applying team accomplishments to individuals. Tony Parker plays on a team with the best player in the game. that's why he wins playoff series. Not because he's better than Yao. That's silly.And i agree that Yao will have trouble guarding smaller quicker skilled players. Those same players will also have trouble guarding him, no?You continue nailing him for not winning in the playoffs, yet McGrady, Carmelo and Garnett are on your list. Isn't that a bit inconsistent? I also didn't realize Yao averaging 25 points and 10 boards during that playoff series was embarrassing himself. I thought that was pretty darn good production. My bad I guess.

[mcpickl 0]

I think Yao fits much better with this list: Elton Brand, Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Paul Pierce, Luol Deng, Josh Howard, Joe Johnson, Allen Iverson, Baron Davis, Ginobili, Barbosa, Marion, Artest, Kidd, Jermaine ONeal

If there were an expansion draft today and the above players and Yao were available, Yao goes #1.For this year, and for 10 years.Even Matt Millen wouldn't screw that up. Unless a good wideout was available.

[Cappy37 0]

And I really want to see the 40 names ahead of Yao. I dont think that's possible. Even then I disagree with the list given. I think he's easily ahead of half the people on that list. It's obvious Yao has passed Shaq at this point. But if you're willing to take Parker or Billups ahead of Yao, I dont what to tell you. As far as trades go, Yao is one of the few players in the league that's untouchable.

The only animal vegetable or minral that didn't pass Shaq in the last two years is the burrito van. <sw>Not my list. I wouldn't put Billups on a top 15 anything. Parker is more of a slasher/creater, he's more valuable in my opinion, even if Billups is the more pure point guard. Houston obviously isn't going anywhere. He's arguably the best center in the game today, and much like the Ichiro situation in Seattle, you couldn't afford to have Yao leave town regardless. Even if Yao was to put up 15 and 10 (not a chance) the rest of his career, the money he generates at the gate and in merchandising would pay for his contract 10x over.

Yao's not a liability on defense. He's not a great defensive player. He's just not that quick. But he's not a defensive liability. He doesnt block a ton of shots, but just having him down there is a huge asset.

He alters a lot of shots. Teams aren't as apt to drive the lane when he's in the middle. The only way to counter that is.. uhh.... :

During the Jazz-Rockets series, Boozer went off. There's no doubt about it. But Boozer went at Yao correctly. Pulling him away from the basket, and using quickness against his size. The fact that Yao had to guard Boozer in the first place is more an indication of Houston's weak power forwards rather than anything against Yao. And lost in the whole series was that Yao countered Boozer on the other end having a good series himself averaging 25/10.

Yeah, that's how you counter it. Good point about Yao's lack of a solid front court partner. Absolutely ridiculous that Yao spent so much time defending on the perimeter. He had the same problem with Okur, but if Houston had a 4 that could guard the perimeter well, Utah can't float BOTH Okur and Boozer outside. If Yao could have stayed put, it would have lessened Deron Williams output considerably. Plus, with Yao in the middle, your schmuck PG could gamble more, knowing that if he got beat, it wasn't an automatic two points.. See NBA History Text 101, under AI/Dikembe and Kobe(D-Wade)/Shaq for more info.. lol. Allowing Yao to man the paint and Battier to do his Pippen help-defense impression would make Houston's D sufficient to compete in the West this year.

BTW, I'm not that much in favor of seeing a Yao/Yi combo. Mainly because I dont think Yi will be that great.

Boo! It'd be a hoot. Yi's waaay young. They could totally buddy together. They could split interpreter costs (even though neither trully needs one). They could recreate the Akroyd/Martin "Two Wild and Crazy Guys" sketch.. I really want this to happen somehow.

[Cappy37 0]

Steve Francis signs with the Rockets. I think thats a good fit all the way around. Miami offered him more money and he turned them down.Suns ship Thomas and swap some picks with Seattle. Seems weird they just gave up their best post defender.

So does that make D-wade the PG or Francis the PG? This is going to be fun to watch. I'm not sold it's good for Miami at all, but it's going to be much fun to watch.Don't worry about PHX, it's just another in the long list of salary cutting moves for the Suns. I'm now pretty convinced they are going to run Amare-Garnett-Marion-Bell-Nash next year and raffle off 7 rosters slots to the fans in section B row 7 next year. Even then, I'm not sure the numbers match up, but D'Antoni is going to pull his hair out by midseason.

[tskillz187 0]

you keep applying team accomplishments to individuals. Tony Parker plays on a team with the best player in the game. that's why he wins playoff series. Not because he's better than Yao. That's silly.

Duncan being best player in the game is very very arguable.

And i agree that Yao will have trouble guarding smaller quicker skilled players. Those same players will also have trouble guarding him, no?

Yes, I'd prefer one of my star players to do better than break even on the offensive and defensive end though.

You continue nailing him for not winning in the playoffs, yet McGrady, Carmelo and Garnett are on your list. Isn't that a bit inconsistent?

Melo doesn't have T-Mac and is younger and isn't a center, you're supposed to build through centers, Yao hasn't taken his team anywhere. Garnett has gone to Western Conference Finals and is ridiculously out of Yao's league. I love McGrady and have no defense for him other than I think he's sick.

I also didn't realize Yao averaging 25 points and 10 boards during that playoff series was embarrassing himself. I thought that was pretty darn good production. My bad I guess.

I didn't know I said it was an embarrassment, though I might have. Pre-Series Yao is best big man on the court, post-series people are talking about Boozer being the best player in the playoffs, that's how bad he made Yao look.

[Jadaki 0]

So does that make D-wade the PG or Francis the PG? This is going to be fun to watch. I'm not sold it's good for Miami at all, but it's going to be much fun to watch.

uh, he signed with Houston, not Miami.

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

Suns ship Thomas and swap some picks with Seattle. Seems weird they just gave up their best post defender.

The Suns also got the Sonics' $8M trade exception, which makes them EXTREMELY flexible to make a large deal.

[princeof56k 0]

I don't watch enough games to say definitively that teams don't change their D for Yao, but it doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that Yao is better than McGrady or that teams just let him get off? There may be all these guys in the lane, seemingly doubling Yao, because they don't want McGrady slashing to the hoop. Also, you can't stop McGrady and it has been proven that having him go off isn't enough to beat your team, so you might as well contain the second best player. And more McGrady is the best tough shot taker (Sorry Kobe you're too good at getting yourself open) in the league.

I understand how some people think TMac is the man on the Rockets. That was true 3 years ago, but it's not true now. The offense goes right through Yao first. TMac is the second option. And all the guys in the lane are there because of Yao. It actually gets worse when TMac isnt in the game. Take the game for example (box score). Nelson, who's a genius at exploiting weaknesses, basically refused to let Yao have the ball. He basically put 2 guys on Yao and played 3 on 4 against the rest of the Rockets. It worked. It's not Yao's fault the Rockets didnt have the right personel to counter it. It was at this point I knew the Rockets were in trouble.I'm still mystified as to why people dont give Yao more credit. He was 2nd team All NBA this past year, and has been 3rd team two other years. Just for reference, here's some other centers' stats when they were 26 (Yao's age last season). I'm listing Points/Rebounds/Blocks, and as many centers as I can think of for comparison (not all are top centers obviously).Kareem 27.0/14.5/3.5Ewing 22.7/9.3/3.5Hakeem 24.8/13.5/3.4M. Malone 31.1/14.7/1.5Shaq 26.3/10.7/1.7Robinson 23.2/12.2/4.5Parrish 17/10.9/1.6Mourning 19.8/9.9/2.9Smits 14.3/5.3/0.9Mutombo 13.8/13/3.5Yao 25.0/9.4/2.0When I look at those numbers, Yao is not that far off from the top guys. Yao's offensive game is highly advanced. That should be obvious to anyone that has seem him play. His rebounding and block numbers are lower obviously due to his lack of quickness. Seriously, what's so bad about Yao's numbers? And those numbers dont even reflect his total impact on the game.

[tskillz187 0]

I understand how some people think TMac is the man on the Rockets. That was true 3 years ago, but it's not true now. The offense goes right through Yao first. TMac is the second option. And all the guys in the lane are there because of Yao. It actually gets worse when TMac isnt in the game. Take the game for example (box score). Nelson, who's a genius at exploiting weaknesses, basically refused to let Yao have the ball. He basically put 2 guys on Yao and played 3 on 4 against the rest of the Rockets. It worked. It's not Yao's fault the Rockets didnt have the right personel to counter it. It was at this point I knew the Rockets were in trouble.I'm still mystified as to why people dont give Yao more credit. He was 2nd team All NBA this past year, and has been 3rd team two other years. Just for reference, here's some other centers' stats when they were 26 (Yao's age last season). I'm listing Points/Rebounds/Blocks, and as many centers as I can think of for comparison (not all are top centers obviously).Kareem 27.0/14.5/3.5Ewing 22.7/9.3/3.5Hakeem 24.8/13.5/3.4M. Malone 31.1/14.7/1.5Shaq 26.3/10.7/1.7Robinson 23.2/12.2/4.5Parrish 17/10.9/1.6Mourning 19.8/9.9/2.9Smits 14.3/5.3/0.9Mutombo 13.8/13/3.5Yao 25.0/9.4/2.0When I look at those numbers, Yao is not that far off from the top guys. Yao's offensive game is highly advanced. That should be obvious to anyone that has seem him play. His rebounding and block numbers are lower obviously due to his lack of quickness. Seriously, what's so bad about Yao's numbers? And those numbers dont even reflect his total impact on the game.

Good numbers. I think Yao is like the 5th or 6th best big man in the league behind Boozer, Duncan, Garnett, Stoudemire, I like Shaq more but it's arguable at this point then I'd put him slightly ahead of Jermaine O'Neal and Bosh. So he's up there but then I think there are a bunch of guards that I'd want over him, definitely including McGrady, but clearly you don't agree with that.

[mcpickl 0]

Duncan being best player in the game is very very arguable.it's really really notYes, I'd prefer one of my star players to do better than break even on the offensive and defensive end though.how's it break even? If I said Shaq would have trouble guarding Earl Boykins but Boykins would have trouble guarding Shaq it doesn't make it break even. They are just completely different players. Just like comparing a 7'5" center to a quicker smaller guyMelo doesn't have T-Mac and is younger and isn't a center, you're supposed to build through centers, Yao hasn't taken his team anywhere. Garnett has gone to Western Conference Finals and is ridiculously out of Yao's league. I love McGrady and have no defense for him other than I think he's sick.Wasn't saying Yao was better than those guys. Was using your argument of playoff success equalling great players. Garnett hasn't even made the playoffs recently. Is it because he's not great? Of course not. It's because he doesn't have the team around him. Houston has two good players. Not really great for a playoff run.I didn't know I said it was an embarrassment, though I might have. Pre-Series Yao is best big man on the court, post-series people are talking about Boozer being the best player in the playoffs, that's how bad he made Yao look.Even if that were true, they are completely different players. Yao shouldn't be guarding Boozer. Yao would look bad guarding point guards too. It's irrelevant. As I said above, Nowitzki looked awful against Golden State in the first round as well. I guess that means he sucks. Or does it mean it was a bad matchup and he didn't play great for a week. I'd say the latter.

[princeof56k 0]

The Suns also got the Sonics' $8M trade exception, which makes them EXTREMELY flexible to make a large deal.

I didnt really get the feeling that they made the trade to give them more flexiblity to make a future deal. From what Kerr said it sounded more like a salary reducing deal and that they were going to go to war with the players they had. If that's the case, I dont like the deal. I think the deal makes them too weak in the post on defense. They already have trouble with the Spurs, and the Jazz/Rockets are two up-and-coming teams that rely on low post scoring. Its very possible next year the Suns could have to go through 2 teams built built around a half court low post scoring style.Now if they make a big trade for a low post player, then that could change everything.