$5 Stt - Ragged Board

[Yahkin 0]

I switched up this hand and limped from the button. The BB raises it up, and MP1 calls...priced in, so I come along for the ride.BB's bet wreaks of cBet/Probe bet on a ragged flop. He's bet every flop he's been in, so I read this bet as weak. I really expected to take the hand down right here with my reraise. He went into the tank for 30 seconds and finally calls my raise.He's not sitting with a 5, so I'm confident his hand has not improved with the turn card...so I fire another round. (As I look at it, it's a little weak, but it still prices out the flush draw). He burned the rest of his time bank before calling again. HMMThe river missed all the draws...do we fire the last shot or just give up? PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)CO (t1385)Hero (t2945)SB (t1565)BB (t2725)UTG (t1515)UTG+1 (t1500)MP1 (t600)MP2 (t1265)Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, J. 2 folds, MP1 calls t30, 2 folds, Hero calls t30, 1 fold, BB raises to t100, MP1 calls t70, Hero calls t70.Flop: (t315) 2, 6, 3(3 players)BB bets t150, MP1 folds, Hero raises to t420, BB calls t270.Turn: (t1155) 4(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets t660, BB calls t660.River: (t2475) T(2 players)BB checks, Hero ???

[simo_8ball 1]

Post I wrote a couple of hours ago in NL forum:

You know he's calling you.You know he has you beat.You still make the bet because it's the only way to win the pot and you can't give up on it after putting so much in there.It's a leak of mine. A pretty big one at that. Usually my thought process is:"Huh. He called my continuation bet. A lot of players will do that with a weak hand and fold to turn aggression.""Goddamnit, he called my turn bet as well. He has to have a set. I bet he just has some retarded top pair or something and doesn't know how to fold when he's beaten. Or maybe he has a draw."Then, one of two things happens. If the obvious draw hits,"I'll shove. He probably has a set or two pair, and he can't call because the flush hit. Oh, he called. He had the flush. FFS, I win that pot every time if the draw misses. He got so lucky. I run so bad."Or if the draw misses,"He's obviously missed his draw. I'll jut fire it in and he'll fold..........Goddamnit, why didn't he raise the flop or the turn with two pair! If he hadn't played that hand like a retard I'd have lost so much less. I run so bad."

I sense this may be the same problem.

[Heels930 0]

Simo, thats probably my favorite post i've ever read on this site.

[jmbreslin 0]

I had to rub my eyes to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Yahkin, you've thrown out about 1200 chips, almost half your stack, on Q-high with no draws to speak of? Aye carumba.

[Yahkin 0]

I had to rub my eyes to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Yahkin, you've thrown out about 1200 chips, almost half your stack, on Q-high with no draws to speak of? Aye carumba.

Never go broke with a Q in your hand? :)I'm playing the player and not the cards in this hand...He raises PF, and then puts out a weak bet on a ragged flop (Read weak). The amount of time it took him to call the flop bet convinced me he was sitting on a mid pocket or overs. (I know Cop, don't rely on timing of online bets.) His turn check is weak again, so let's push him off his marginal hand. Now there's a pile of chips in the pot and I want them. If he is indeed weak and just whiffed the river, the third bullet will take down a nice pot.OBV we are not winning a showdown, so the only way to win is to get him to fold. Is there a chance of that happening here with the push?

[Kestral123 0]

Never go broke with a Q in your hand? I'm playing the player and not the cards in this hand...He raises PF, and then puts out a weak bet on a ragged flop (Read weak). The amount of time it took him to call the flop bet convinced me he was sitting on a mid pocket or overs. (I know Cop, don't rely on timing of online bets. ) His turn check is weak again, so let's push him off his marginal hand. Now there's a pile of chips in the pot and I want them. If he is indeed weak and just whiffed the river, the third bullet will take down a nice pot.OBV we are not winning a showdown, so the only way to win is to get him to fold. Is there a chance of that happening here with the push?

This is read dependent. In most cases I would interpret his play as having overcards like AK or AQ, because most players would have reraised an overpair at some point here. If so, a bet on the end SHOULD take it down. But, it also should have taken it down on the turn. So, depends on the player and whether he can look you up with a big ace. I'm probably not shoving here, but I might bet 1000 or so, which is more than half his remaining stack and still leaves us with a little bit of fold equity to try and get back in if we get snapped off.

[simo_8ball 1]

I don't think ace high calls the turn.His play looks most like a scared overpair.

[jmbreslin 0]

Never go broke with a Q in your hand? :)I'm playing the player and not the cards in this hand...He raises PF, and then puts out a weak bet on a ragged flop (Read weak). The amount of time it took him to call the flop bet convinced me he was sitting on a mid pocket or overs. (I know Cop, don't rely on timing of online bets.) His turn check is weak again, so let's push him off his marginal hand. Now there's a pile of chips in the pot and I want them. If he is indeed weak and just whiffed the river, the third bullet will take down a nice pot.OBV we are not winning a showdown, so the only way to win is to get him to fold. Is there a chance of that happening here with the push?

So the options are:1) accept that your play didn't work and save your last 1500 chips for a comeback (assuming you check and lose the showdown); or2) go for broke and lay out a big bet in the hopes of stealing the pot.That's a tough call. If you're in a gambling mood, I say push. Laying out a big enough bet to scare him at this point will pretty much cripple you if you lose anyway, so might as well go for broke here. Your starting stack had him covered, so he has to be willing to put his tourney life on the line with his (likely) pair.Of course this is coming from a guy who would likely opt for (1)...

[litlebullet 0]

fold preflop. i got nothing else.

[sabes99 0]

once he calls on the flop, you have to surrender this hand...what can he have to call your flop bet, regardless of whether he bets every flop or not? would he really call the flop with A-K or A-Q?and even if you do continue on the turn, when he calls there also, he has to have an overpair...i guess maybe you could take it away on the river, but do you really want to risk your tournament life on a bluff when your opponent is pot stuck?i would have just given up a while ago on this hand

[Kestral123 0]

once he calls on the flop, you have to surrender this hand...what can he have to call your flop bet, regardless of whether he bets every flop or not? would he really call the flop with A-K or A-Q?

Yes. I see AK and AQ played this way all the time; probably at least once in every MTT that I play in for more than an hour. But, that's why I said it's read dependent. Some donks will call liberally with overcards hoping to catch and then fold the river when they don't. Or it could be a rock with TT who is afraid of a set but won't lay down.

[Potsie P 0]

Heck, I've seen a middle pair call this down at the $5 level. I think he's got something and has put you on overcards. At best, 50/50 to get called. I don't like being all in with Q high. I say fold. If he's really that bad, you'll have enough left to stick it to him later.

[jmbreslin 0]

The more I think about this the more I say just check the river and take your loss. You'll be right back to where you started in terms of chips and you're only on Level II, so you'll have plenty of time and opportunity to recoup your losses. I really don't see a good enough reason to risk being crippled on a bluff this early.

[Eight_Tabler 0]

Stt's are about surviving until the end and then playing correct situational poker (usually aggressive), when the blinds are high. Never, ever, try to make plays like this at the beginning of a sng. Especially in a $5 tourney where the players are horrible and will call you down with top pair. Fire one bullet, at most, then give up.

[timwakefield 69]

Fold the flop. If you really think you can take it away, ok go for it, but after he calls you on the flop please check the turn and take your 6 free outs.

[litlebullet 0]

Stt's are about surviving until the end and then playing correct situational poker (usually aggressive), when the blinds are high. Never, ever, try to make plays like this at the beginning of a sng. Especially in a $5 tourney where the players are horrible and will call you down with top pair. Fire one bullet, at most, then give up.

this is basically what i wanted to say but I would have said it with more oooooomph. play liek a nitin the early levels. If there's one thing that I've learned from sng grinders at different forums, it's that you don't "play poker" in a sng (if you plan on playing them for money, of course).

[Yahkin 0]

Ok, I agree tight is very right in these, but sometimes you just "see" something that makes you play a hand like this...and that's why I brought this hand up. I kept reading his as very weak and so I kept firing bullets. When he called the turn I felt like such a donk and gave up on this hand. As it turns out, my read was right on and there's about a 90% chance I take this down with a push on the river.He didn't have the correct odds to call on the flop, but he picked up the flush/straight combo on the turn giving him odds for that call. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)CO (t1385)Hero (t2945)SB (t1565)BB (t2725)UTG (t1515)UTG+1 (t1500)MP1 (t600)MP2 (t1265)Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, J. 2 folds, MP1 calls t30, 2 folds, Hero calls t30, 1 fold, BB raises to t100, MP1 calls t70, Hero calls t70.Flop: (t315) 2, 6, 3(3 players)BB bets t150, MP1 folds, Hero raises to t420, BB calls t270.Turn: (t1155) 4(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets t660, BB calls t660.River: (t2475) T(2 players)BB checks, Hero checks.Final Pot: t2475Results below:BB has Ad Kd (high card, ace). Hero has Qc Jd (high card, queen). Outcome: BB wins t2475.

[simo_8ball 1]

He didn't have the correct odds to call on the flop

He was ahead on the flop.Just saying.

[Yahkin 0]

He was ahead on the flop.Just saying.

I know...but he could not have known that for sure. I don't think it's a bad call on his part though. Back door flush and straight draws and probably two good overs. I probably call too.

[jmbreslin 0]

In this kind of situation, if you're prepared to throw in some chips to try to bluff him off the pot, maybe it would be better to fire a bigger first shot to increase the chances of taking the pot on the flop than to fire again on the turn. For example, if you had raised to something like 600 on the flop instead of 420, you greatly increase your chances that he'll give up on his overcards. If he calls that bet, you can give up on the hand then and you would have saved yourself a whole bunch of chips.The whole bigger first shot vs. combining first and second shots issue is something that I struggle with in many situations, and I wonder if this hand makes a good case for a bigger first shot.

[simo_8ball 1]

I know...but he could not have known that for sure.

Lol - I know. Against your range he's a decent underdog. Just thought it was funny to ay a guy with the best hand AND the better draw didn't have odds to call.

[Kestral123 0]

Not to say I told you so...but I told you so.