Overpair Versus Draw Heavy Board

[Merby 3]

Villain is new to the table, but is already 67/7 through 14 hands. Play it fast? Or call and peel one card?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)BB ($128)UTG ($112.20)Hero ($436.20)Button ($197)SB ($50.85)Preflop: Hero is MP with J, J. 1 fold, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds, BB calls $6.Flop: ($17) 5, 6, 8(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $10, BB raises to $20, Hero ...?

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Villain is new to the table, but is already 67/7 through 14 hands. Play it fast? Or call and peel one card?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)BB ($128)UTG ($112.20)Hero ($436.20)Button ($197)SB ($50.85)Preflop: Hero is MP with J, J. 1 fold, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds, BB calls $6.Flop: ($17) 5, 6, 8(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $10, BB raises to $20, Hero ...?

Hero.. folds or raises. I don't know what those fancy numbers mean, but, if he's "already loose" through 14 hands, then I raise. If not, I fold.Calling his flop raise puts ~60 in the pot, and he only has 100 behind, and then we're forced to call a turn bet, and a river bet, all with no idea where we're really at in the hand.I just get tired of stacking off to people when they flop a set like this, though, so this is probably bad advice.

[simo_8ball 1]

I make it $45 and fold to a push. If he calls (ewww) I probably shove a blank turn.It would help a lot if villain had a bigger stack.

[AKProdigy 0]

I really don't think you can fold here, since it could be A8 or air rather than a set or AA/KK. I probably reraise to ~ 50 and hate it if he doesn't fold. If he pushes, I probably fold.. If he calls, I have no clue. Probably shove the turn unless its an ace. Then I don't know what I do.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Edit: Don't mind me.

[simo_8ball 1]

If we raise to 50, and he pushes, that gives us almost 2-1 with an overpair. We still fold?

Reluctantly, yes.I don't hate shoving after his minraise to fold out draws either.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Reluctantly, yes.I don't hate shoving after his minraise to fold out draws either.

I agree very much about your shoving, there. I think we fold QQ, maybe KK sometimes, too.I did the math wrong, on the post you quoted, though. It'd be more along the lines of say, ~1.7:1, which I think is a better/easier fold.

[Merby 3]

It would help a lot if villain had a bigger stack.

That was what was bothering me the most about this hand:-If the villain has a shorter stack, then it's an easy push and hope for the best.-If the villain had a deeper stack, we could easily reraise/fold or if we want, call and reevaluate (dangerous on this board, obviously)

I don't know what those fancy numbers mean, but, if he's "already loose" through 14 hands, then I raise. If not, I fold.

67/7 denote Poker tracker numbers. Generally given as VPIP/PFR67 = (VPIP) = Voluntarily put money in pot preflop. Expressed as a percentage. So the villain voluntarily added money to the pot preflop on 67% of his hands (does not include forced blinds, obviously)7 = (PFR%) = Preflop raise percent = percent of hands which villain raised preflop.Sometimes there is a third number, such as 67/7/1.6. The 1.6 is the total aggression factor. Basically, count all the opportunities where the villain elected to bet or raise, and divide this by the number of times the villain elected to call. So for example, an AF of 2 means that the villain bets/raises twice as often as he calls a bet. The bottom line here is:AF<1 = Passive oppoonent1<AF<2 = Normal opponent2<AF = Aggressive opponent

[simo_8ball 1]

Wait, if we raise to $50, the pot will be $128 + $8 + $50 + $1 (SB) = $187, and we will have to call $128 - $8 - $50 = $70.We would be getting 2.67:1.I forgot to add our $50 raise to the pot before.Screw it, I shove.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Wait, if we raise to $50, the pot will be $128 + $8 + $50 + $1 (SB) = $187, and we will have to call $128 - $8 - $50 = $70.We would be getting 2.67:1.I forgot to add our $50 raise to the pot before.Screw it, I shove.

Man, I need to go to bed, bad. I don't know that I fold there, getting almost 3-1. I don't know. When you're beat, you're beat, sometimes.

[Merby 3]

Cool, thanks.I ended up raising for about half his remaining stack (since I am obviously calling a shove for that raise, don't ask me why I didn't just shove).The villain shoved, I made the obligatory donk-call and the board ran out with hearts (Ugh!). The villain turned over 5 5 for the flopped set and runner runner flush.Oh well.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Hero ...?

Please don't go broke with jacks. EDIT: n mPS: One of my favorite hands in the last couple months is when I was sitting at a $2/5 NL game, and I turn the 8T straight on a board of 9765. Guy shoved JJ at me (we both have about $800) when I'm sitting on the nuts and proceeds to scold me about my play. I usually don't say much, but I told him that tonight's lesson is, "Don't go broke with jacks. It's even dumber than going broke with queens."

[simo_8ball 1]

Please don't go broke with jacks.

You fold to the minraise then? Or are you making a more general point?

[mtdesmoines 2]

You fold to the minraise then? Or are you making a more general point?

Yeah, it's a little bit of a general point ... and it's a problem in general with being big stack and playing back at short stacks. We've got half the chips on the table, but if we start playing back at every flop raise with simply an overpair, we're going to spread our stack out around the table very quickly.

[fckthis 0]

Call and re-evaluate turn. He could have a big draw, or a draw+pair, so seeing the turn for 10, instead of 3betting/fold, is a better line IMO. 3betting won't fold a better hand so I dont like raising to find out where you are.

[sabes99 0]

with the board looking that ugly, i probably just call and see a turn card

[Acid_Knight 2]

So, I always say that we don't wait for safe cards in Holdem and this is no different. HOWEVER, I do think that a flat call here is the best move for a lot of reasons.1. He min raised OOP on a very draw heavy board. He likely has a very strong made hand (doing a poor job of protecting it, if it needs protecting) or a big draw which he probably won't fold if we push.2. We are probably behind, but it's a cheap price and we have position.3. If a blank rolls off and he bets strongly, we can just fold knowing that we are likely beaten.4. If any of the draws come through and he bets, we can just fold knowing that we are likely beaten.5. If a draw comes though and he doesn't have it, it might freeze him and give us a chance to win the pot if he had the best hand.6. If he was just trying to find out where he's at with a 1 pair type of hand, he likely won't bet again and then we can effectively protect our hand on the turn.Basically, I feel that we'll get a lot of good information from his turn bet. I think that we should be folding most of the time (which begs the question, why not fold the flop?) when he bets, but this will give us more information about his hand at a minimal price and allow us to make a better decision.

[Merby 3]

So, I always say that we don't wait for safe cards in Holdem and this is no different. HOWEVER, I do think that a flat call here is the best move for a lot of reasons.1. He min raised OOP on a very draw heavy board. He likely has a very strong made hand (doing a poor job of protecting it, if it needs protecting) or a big draw which he probably won't fold if we push.2. We are probably behind, but it's a cheap price and we have position.3. If a blank rolls off and he bets strongly, we can just fold knowing that we are likely beaten.4. If any of the draws come through and he bets, we can just fold knowing that we are likely beaten.5. If a draw comes though and he doesn't have it, it might freeze him and give us a chance to win the pot if he had the best hand.6. If he was just trying to find out where he's at with a 1 pair type of hand, he likely won't bet again and then we can effectively protect our hand on the turn.Basically, I feel that we'll get a lot of good information from his turn bet. I think that we should be folding most of the time (which begs the question, why not fold the flop?) when he bets, but this will give us more information about his hand at a minimal price and allow us to make a better decision.

^^ Advice I should have followed.

[Lavitz 0]

Someone who plays 67/x/x is a horrible player, plain and simple. They are the WORST players to pull a bet/fold against because they will push over our bets and do stupid things with weaker hands because they DONT think and just play their own cards. If we raise flop, we have to call a shove. Folding after we raise is incorrect and a major flaw, especially given odds and a donkey's potential hand range.The problem with calling and revaluating turn (to see if he bets again) is that he's betting turn no matter what. If he's on a draw and a blank comes he's going to bet anyways. If hes on a hand we're ahead of like TP or 2nd pair or air, hes going to bet turn because he is a BAD player and doesn't realize he ISN'T ahead and is really turning his TP/2nd pair into a bluff. IF we call and a blank rolls off then we need to go with the hand because he isn't slowing down in most cases, whether he has a draw/set/air/TP/whatever. Bad players do dumb things and seeing 67% of flops is almost as bad as it gets.

[Merby 3]

Someone who plays 67/x/x is a horrible player, plain and simple. They are the WORST players to pull a bet/fold against because they will push over our bets and do stupid things with weaker hands because they DONT think and just play their own cards. If we raise flop, we have to call a shove. Folding after we raise is incorrect and a major flaw, especially given odds and a donkey's potential hand range.The problem with calling and revaluating turn (to see if he bets again) is that he's betting turn no matter what. If he's on a draw and a blank comes he's going to bet anyways. If hes on a hand we're ahead of like TP or 2nd pair or air, hes going to bet turn because he is a BAD player and doesn't realize he ISN'T ahead and is really turning his TP/2nd pair into a bluff. IF we call and a blank rolls off then we need to go with the hand because he isn't slowing down in most cases, whether he has a draw/set/air/TP/whatever. Bad players do dumb things and seeing 67% of flops is almost as bad as it gets.

Agreed. but the sample is only through 14 hands (2 orbits). It is very possible that he just went through a hot run of cards during this stretch... ofcourse, of the 14 hands so far, he only elected to *raise* preflop once...At this point, I was *strongly* suspecting him to be a fish, but tried to not let it colour my opinion too much since the sample was only over 14 hands...

[dbl_j_22 0]

Someone who plays 67/x/x is a horrible player, plain and simple. They are the WORST players to pull a bet/fold against because they will push over our bets and do stupid things with weaker hands because they DONT think and just play their own cards. If we raise flop, we have to call a shove. Folding after we raise is incorrect and a major flaw, especially given odds and a donkey's potential hand range.The problem with calling and revaluating turn (to see if he bets again) is that he's betting turn no matter what. If he's on a draw and a blank comes he's going to bet anyways. If hes on a hand we're ahead of like TP or 2nd pair or air, hes going to bet turn because he is a BAD player and doesn't realize he ISN'T ahead and is really turning his TP/2nd pair into a bluff. IF we call and a blank rolls off then we need to go with the hand because he isn't slowing down in most cases, whether he has a draw/set/air/TP/whatever. Bad players do dumb things and seeing 67% of flops is almost as bad as it gets.

You are making a lot of assumptions about this villians play simply b/c after 14 hands two stats tell you he's 67 v$pip and 7 PFR . THe problem with these assumptions are that most people know how they are playing and you can bet alot of people that you don't know are just setting up an image to get paid off on. The truth is even as low as 25nl or whatever, people can usually effectively change gears. Also you get players that can play very well that loose. Basically, only 14 hands in, we really have no idea where the villian is coming from. Theres much more important reads to have on this player rather than just the vpip and pfr, and op hasn't given us any so we have to play this like against an unknown, that go off playing pretty fast but we're not quite sure his agenda.With that said, i like taking one card off, we have position, and its a very small bet. Force him to make another move oop on the turn in a decent sized pot. Thats where we should get some good information.

[Zach6668 513]

I haven't read all of the replies, but in general, you should be more willing to go nuts on flops with overpairs when they are coordinated, simply due to the fact that villains will be raising with a wider range (aka draws), than they would be on a super dry board.

[simo_8ball 1]

I haven't read all of the replies, but in general, you should be more willing to go nuts on flops with overpairs when they are coordinated, simply due to the fact that villains will be raising with a wider range (aka draws), than they would be on a super dry board.

QFT