Did I Miss Value?

[shinzilla 0]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)BB ($112.35)UTG ($100)Hero ($104)Button ($94.05)SB ($99.85)Preflop: Hero is MP with A, A. Hero raises to $4, 2 folds, BB calls $3.Flop: ($8.50) 2, 6, 6(3 players)BB bets $4, Hero calls $4.Turn: ($16.50) 3(3 players)BB bets $16.5, Hero calls $16.50.River: ($49.50) 7(3 players)BB bets $23, Hero calls $23.Final Pot: $95.50Should I have sprung a raise on the turn or river, hoping for an overpair call? Was this overzealous pot control? No reads on villain, as this was my first orbit at the table.

[Merby 3]

I like the call down, it sets the tone against your opponents.If you're going to raise, do it on the turn (just push the turn if you're raising). Raising the river after the other streets were just called is just bad play.

[Skittles 0]

I think you played the hand fine on all streets. That said, I think this is an interesting hand because I want to raise it at some point too. I kinda agree with Merby that if you're going to raise, the turn is probably the best spot to do so. I really don't know though. The flop call looks like a peel with AK or maybe that you are actually afraid of the 6. I think that prompts the BB to try to bluff you out on the next street or at least find where's he's at with 77-99, maybe 33 or 44. To me the turn bet looks like weakness, I think if he thought you had AK or an overpair with this hand, he'd be better off betting smaller or even better, checking. I really don't think he has a 6 at this point, but who knows, it seems a medium pair is the most likely. With that in mind, is he going to fold to a raise? I don't know, but calling gives him hope and might get us value if he's bluffing. This river looks like a blocking bet/value bet more than a bluff to me, but I really don't see any value in raising. He might feel pot stuck at this point, but I really can't see him calling a push with a medium pair or a bluff obviously, and he's always calling when we're beat.

[bdc30 0]

And we're not raising the flop why?

[Merby 3]

And we're not raising the flop why?

The flop is so dry, I don't mind waiting for the turn to raise. There are no realistic draws to worry about.

[Visnovsky 0]

I think that given you have little read on the villain, you did fairly well for the hand. I like the idea of the turn raise, but what hands call you there? Pocket pairs 10 or Jack through King and a 6, probably. Most of those pairs reraise preflop to a button raiser, and a 6 you are losing to. So the next question is did you lose value on the river? You have to assume that by raising you are committing all of your chips whether you go all in or not, as a re-raise would have to be called (just to keep in mind). But the river bet doesn't seem like the BB got lucky to me and out drew you. He bet the pot on the turn and you called, he would have to think that you would call a bigger bet on the river. A river raise just doesn't feel like it gets called to me unless you are behind, and most hands the villain would have don't call any sort of big raise on the river. I think you did well, but then again I'm an idiot. If this is online, I wouldn't have enough time to come this conclusion and would just call the river or do something donkish on the flop or turn.

[Snamuh 0]

Weird betting by the villain. He donk bets less than half pot on the flop which is usually either a monster trying to induce action or a weak hand testing the waters. Then he fires out pot on the turn. Then he bets less than half pot on the river. I'm fine with a call-down. I don't know what's going to call a turn reraise that you beat other than JJ-KK maybe, which is unlikely because the villain didn't reraise preflop. A six is definitely and I don't want to bloat the pot more. I don't think there's a ton of value missed, but if you do decide to raise somewhere, I'd probably do it on the turn.

[Zach6668 513]

And we're not raising the flop why?

To be honest.There isn't much that is drawing very live vs us, if we're ahead.If we're behind, then we're drawing to 2 outs.I don't hate letting the villain hang himself here. I might raise the turn once the FD shows up.

[Craigdog 0]

a turn raise would have been acceptable to extract more value assuming he has a hand like 10 10 9 9 etc etc.. , however the hand played fine as he made a nice further bet on the river so assuming you won the hand you made about $50 on the hand.

[simo_8ball 0]

I play it the same. I would be looking to raise the turn, but his pot bet confuses me. I like keeping him in the lead.

[IBFT 0]

against this specific opponent i feel like you may have missed some value, only because I feel like he's gonna turn over 8s or 9s on the river, and it was obvious that he never once thought 'hey, he raised pf and has called every bet so far, maybe my medium pp is no good'. That said, I echo everyone elses sentiment that the turn was the best spot for you to put a raise in, if you were going to do so.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Should I have sprung a raise on the turn or river, hoping for an overpair call? Was this overzealous pot control? No reads on villain, as this was my first orbit at the table.

Yeah, I raise the turn.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I will often shovel the river here or at least raise and call a push. There is a lot of value left here considering that the biggest card out there is a 7 and he easily holds one of the many overpairs to the board that is smaller than ours. What are we really worried about here? 22 and 6x. We're losing to those hands but they're not the most likely hands. I think that the way you played it and with his betting pattern, I'm raising the river (probably all in due to stack sizes) and I expect to show a profit doing it.It's hard for him to put us on AA here so he will definitely be paying off with worse. We look like an idiot when he instacalls with deuces full, but I don't think that's what will happen most of the time.His betting pattern is kind of like this:Preflop: "I have a speculative hand, maybe a couple of big or medium suited connectors or a small to medium pair"Flop: "That flop probably didn't help him, I'm gonna bet to see what's going on. Half the pot should do since it's pretty dry out there"Turn: "Ok, he called me, but I didn't bet enough to make him fold AK type hands, I'm gonna bet the pot here"River: "Crap, he called that PSB on the turn. I have this pair and I really wanna try and get to showdown. I'm gonna try for half the pot and hope that he doesn't raise"

[shinzilla 0]

I will often shovel the river here or at least raise and call a push. There is a lot of value left here considering that the biggest card out there is a 7 and he easily holds one of the many overpairs to the board that is smaller than ours. What are we really worried about here? 22 and 6x. We're losing to those hands but they're not the most likely hands. I think that the way you played it and with his betting pattern, I'm raising the river (probably all in due to stack sizes) and I expect to show a profit doing it.It's hard for him to put us on AA here so he will definitely be paying off with worse. We look like an idiot when he instacalls with deuces full, but I don't think that's what will happen most of the time.His betting pattern is kind of like this:Preflop: "I have a speculative hand, maybe a couple of big or medium suited connectors or a small to medium pair"Flop: "That flop probably didn't help him, I'm gonna bet to see what's going on. Half the pot should do since it's pretty dry out there"Turn: "Ok, he called me, but I didn't bet enough to make him fold AK type hands, I'm gonna bet the pot here"River: "Crap, he called that PSB on the turn. I have this pair and I really wanna try and get to showdown. I'm gonna try for half the pot and hope that he doesn't raise"

Yeah, that half pot bet on the river seemed like a blocking bet to me, but for some reason, I decided against raising it. Why are you suggesting raising the river over raising the turn?

[simo_8ball 0]

Yeah, that half pot bet on the river seemed like a blocking bet to me, but for some reason, I decided against raising it. Why are you suggesting raising the river over raising the turn?

If you raise the turn you let him get away from his mid pair. He has potted the turn, and is likely to bet the river as well. Why not let him bet your hand for you?

[shinzilla 0]

If you raise the turn you let him get away from his mid pair. He has potted the turn, and is likely to bet the river as well. Why not let him bet your hand for you?

Great. I think that's what I was intuitively thinking during the hand. I think Acid's right when he's suggesting a river raise. However, villain was an aggro donkey who I didn't see having a pair 99+ because I think he would've 3-bet me those hands pre-flop (I should've included this when I posted the hand). Results: I called and he flipped over J9o. Crazy.

[simo_8ball 0]

I had an almost identical hand where the flop was something like 833, and villain potted down and stacked off on the river with AQo against my KK. It's funny how often people go mad at random times with random hands.

[Snamuh 0]

Great. I think that's what I was intuitively thinking during the hand. I think Acid's right when he's suggesting a river raise. However, villain was an aggro donkey who I didn't see having a pair 99+ because I think he would've 3-bet me those hands pre-flop (I should've included this when I posted the hand). Results: I called and he flipped over J9o. Crazy.

A perfect example of why raising somewhere in this hand isn't needed. You let him hang himself and extracted the most value possible.

[Visnovsky 0]

Results: I called and he flipped over J9o. Crazy.

I would love to see the guy's reasoning for his river bet.

[simo_8ball 0]

I would love to see the guy's reasoning for his river bet.

You know he's calling you.You know he has you beat.You still make the bet because it's the only way to win the pot and you can't give up on it after putting so much in there.It's a leak of mine. A pretty big one at that. Usually my thought process is:"Huh. He called my continuation bet. A lot of players will do that with a weak hand and fold to turn aggression.""Goddamnit, he called my turn bet as well. He has to have a set. I bet he just has some retarded top pair or something and doesn't know how to fold when he's beaten. Or maybe he has a draw."Then, one of two things happens. If the obvious draw hits,"I'll shove. He probably has a set or two pair, and he can't call because the flush hit. Oh, he called. He had the flush. FFS, I win that pot every time if the draw misses. He got so lucky. I run so bad."Or if the draw misses,"He's obviously missed his draw. I'll jut fire it in and he'll fold..........Goddamnit, why didn't he raise the flop or the turn with two pair! If he hadn't played that hand like a retard I'd have lost so much less. I run so bad."

[Merby 3]

You know he's calling you.You know he has you beat.You still make the bet because it's the only way to win the pot and you can't give up on it after putting so much in there.It's a leak of mine. A pretty big one at that. Usually my thought process is:"Huh. He called my continuation bet. A lot of players will do that with a weak hand and fold to turn aggression.""Goddamnit, he called my turn bet as well. He has to have a set. I bet he just has some retarded top pair or something and doesn't know how to fold when he's beaten. Or maybe he has a draw."Then, one of two things happens. If the obvious draw hits,"I'll shove. He probably has a set or two pair, and he can't call because the flush hit. Oh, he called. He had the flush. FFS, I win that pot every time if the draw misses. He got so lucky. I run so bad."Or if the draw misses,"He's obviously missed his draw. I'll jut fire it in and he'll fold..........Goddamnit, why didn't he raise the flop or the turn with two pair! If he hadn't played that hand like a retard I'd have lost so much less. I run so bad."

You've described my "tilt" play to a tee. Sadly, I have been playing poker while "on tilt" more often than I have been playing it "off tilt" during this week. It was due to some timely and well-spaced bad beats which totally destroyed my state of mind (which were always occurring just as I was settling down from the last bout of tilt).The worst part?I didn't leave the tables. Last week? +$3500-ish (+17.5 buy-ins)This week? -$2500-ish (-12.5 buy-ins... and the week ain't over yet)At some point, I will post my "profit versus hands played" graph for this month: it looks like a mountain, with the peak lying *exactly* at the dividing line between last week and this week. It will be in the New Challenge(Old Challenge) thread in General.

[Lavitz 0]

Well played.