Was David Singer Correct?

[SeanPhillippi 0]

David Singer Eliminated, Not Without ControversyOn a flop of Ks 7s 4d and facing a bet of 3,000 from a late-position player David Singer moved all from the button for 9,450. Here's where the hand gets interesting. As David's opponent was contemplating his decision his cell phone rang -- he removed it from his pocket, glanced at it and turned it off. Singer said nothing at first but made a motion to the dealer. Then his opponent said "I'll just pay you off, I'll call." At this point Singer said, "His hand should be dead," and requested a ruling from the floorperson. When the floorperson heard the situation she called for the Tournament Director to make a ruling. After a re-enactment of exactly how the player touched his phone, the Tournament Director ruled that his hand was not dead and he would be allowed to play. Singer then requested a higher ruling, saying, "I have a drawing hand here and I obviously don't want him to be allowed to call." This request was denied and the players' hands were tabled, with Singer showing 4s 5s for bottom pair and a flush draw and his opponent holding Kd Jd for top pair. The turn 10h and river 8d did not help Singer and he has been eliminated. As he left the table he was asking for a refund, saying, "Ever since I have been here, I have been told that if you touch your phone during a hand then your hand is dead." At this point we don't know if that request will be considered but we do know that David Singer will not be playing Day Two of the Main Event, and he's not happy about it.Here is the rule as posted by Pokernews:2. You cannot be on a cellphone or text messaging when the first card is dealt. If you are, you're hand is declared dead.I agree with the floor here. The player did not talk on his phone and was not text messaging, so I would have made the same ruling. What does everyone on here think?

[XXEddie 0]

Here is the rule as posted by Pokernews:2. You cannot be on a cellphone or text messaging when the first card is dealt. If you are, you're hand is declared dead.I agree with the floor here. The player did not talk on his phone and was not text messaging, so I would not made the same ruling. What does everyone on here think?

huh?btw, Im with singer

[wsox8 10]

I agree w/ Singer. I basically thought phones were not allowed once cards were dealt.

[a__thekevlar__2 0]

if by "be on a cellphone" they mean if you are actively talking on your phone then the ruling is correct.

[chaosnhavoc 0]

let the cell phone ring and keep it in your pocket thats what the player should have done.

[ffishh 0]

singer is being an idiot. floor is correct.

[mase_gotsem 0]

tuff to side unless i seen the rule on paper if it says talking then it was right if it says no phones at all while crds are dealt then singer was right either way id of flipped the table upside down and yell broccoli ..

[Nealyh_02 0]

I think they should give Singer his refund, but should not be allowed to buy in for another day.

[PMJackson21 0]

if by "be on a cellphone" they mean if you are actively talking on your phone then the ruling is correct.

Agreed. I think that ruling anything different would be taking the rule to an extreme that it wasn't meant for. The request for a refund/ability to register for another starting date is ridiculously pathetic.I <3 Kevlar.

[Jam-Fly 8]

This is hardly an interesting decision at all. It's just sour grapes with David. I like the way he said "I have a drawing hand so I don't want a call" as opposed to "I have middle set, so please don't rule his hand dead". The player was not using his phone (ie talking, texting, playing games etc.), he simply touched it and turned it off. I agree with floor's ruling

[Squirrelmonger 0]

David Singer has a legit complaint and the rule about cell phones is too lenient.Plain and simple, the rule needs to boil down to stopping any player from receiving information from an outside source while playing a hand. The rule should include killing a hand for a phone ringing while you have a live hand, I might even go so far as to give a penalty to any player receiving a call during a hand regardless of their status in the hand. To have the phone ring at all can give information, you simply need to inform the person in advance that that a call means fold/call/raise/etc and any number of other possibilities. The goal of any cell phone rule should be to encourage players to turn their phones off during play.I don't know if the rule exists already but spectators should not be allowed to use a cell phone within 50 feet of a table. This whole thing boils down to preventing cheating of any kind. Given the situation I think Singer has the right to be upset, however it would be a little dishonest of him to claim he is motivated by anything other than his own personal interest to win the event. Under no circumstances should he be allowed to play in another day, but I think if there is any credence to his claims that he and others have had hands declared dead for merely touching the phone or pressing a button then it is more than reasonable and only fair that he receive a refund.Speaking from experience I can tell you that consistency in your rulings is paramount to maintaining any respect and through that respect the ability to maintain order throughout the event. They must remain consistent and any and all deviations from the current rules needs to be visited after the World Series ends not in the middle of the event when faced with specific circumstances, especially circumstances involving a well known player. It may or may not already be the case but the officials in charge of these events should be expected to carry out the rules with as much consistency and adherence to the intent of the rules as possible. To that end every dealer who is going to be working the series should be receiving daily info sheets informing them to all issues that arose during the previous day and how each ruling is to be handled from then on. Nobody expects the event to go off perfectly but I think it is reasonable to expect them to learn from their mistakes very quickly and adjust accordingly. There is of course a fine line between keeping with a consistent ruling and continuing to make a bad ruling....but their job is to figure out which is which.

[Jam-Fly 8]

David Singer has a legit complaint and the rule about cell phones is too lenient.Plain and simple, the rule needs to boil down to stopping any player from receiving information from an outside source while playing a hand. The rule should include killing a hand for a phone ringing while you have a live hand, I might even go so far as to give a penalty to any player receiving a call during a hand regardless of their status in the hand. To have the phone ring at all can give information, you simply need to inform the person in advance that that a call means fold/call/raise/etc and any number of other possibilities. The goal of any cell phone rule should be to encourage players to turn their phones off during play.I don't know if the rule exists already but spectators should not be allowed to use a cell phone within 50 feet of a table. This whole thing boils down to preventing cheating of any kind. Given the situation I think Singer has the right to be upset, however it would be a little dishonest of him to claim he is motivated by anything other than his own personal interest to win the event. Under no circumstances should he be allowed to play in another day, but I think if there is any credence to his claims that he and others have had hands declared dead for merely touching the phone or pressing a button then it is more than reasonable and only fair that he receive a refund.Speaking from experience I can tell you that consistency in your rulings is paramount to maintaining any respect and through that respect the ability to maintain order throughout the event. They must remain consistent and any and all deviations from the current rules needs to be visited after the World Series ends not in the middle of the event when faced with specific circumstances, especially circumstances involving a well known player. It may or may not already be the case but the officials in charge of these events should be expected to carry out the rules with as much consistency and adherence to the intent of the rules as possible. To that end every dealer who is going to be working the series should be receiving daily info sheets informing them to all issues that arose during the previous day and how each ruling is to be handled from then on. Nobody expects the event to go off perfectly but I think it is reasonable to expect them to learn from their mistakes very quickly and adjust accordingly. There is of course a fine line between keeping with a consistent ruling and continuing to make a bad ruling....but their job is to figure out which is which.

[doox 15]

Michael Craig (writer, who does a blog for Full Tilt) has 3 entries already just on this subject:http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/poker-blog/(#199-201)

[Squirrelmonger 0]

you clearly are not....

[Jam-Fly 8]

Michael Craig (writer, who does a blog for Full Tilt) has 3 entries already just on this subject:http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/poker-blog/(#199-201)

I found this part of the blog completely retarded:

Just for fun, I may take some calls from Jo Anne while I play on Monday. She's in a different state so it's impossible she'll have information to give me from which I can gain a benefit in the hand. If I don't hold up play and I can show that my wife is in Arizona, and record the call to show it had no poker content, I don't see why they can't rule in my favor

That is just needlessly trying to get in trouble. It's like when your going through security in the airport, saying to one of the guards "Did you find the gun in my bag, haha"

[checkymcfold 0]

when i played an event this year, i explicitly asked the dealer before we began what to do re: cells and he told me clearly not to touch them once the first card was dealt. i don't know whether he or the floor was wrong on this one, but yeah, that's what i was told.

[Jam-Fly 8]

I think it depends whether or not Harrah's are allowed apply common sense to making decisions. I still think that Singer is wrong within the rules, but using common sense, there is no reason his opponenet was out of line.

[IBFT 0]

Feels like a case of both sides are right (to a degree). I would be more inclined to agree with Singer wholeheartedly if not for his comment about 'I don't want him to call'. Saying that was just dumb and really makes his argument (whether it is or not) feel like sour grapes. However, rules are still rules, and if you aren't allowed to touch a phone, don't touch the phone. You're playing pokah, turn the f'ing thing off until break.

[Squirrelmonger 0]

I don't see why you took exception to my comments Jam-Fly, I merely said he had a legitimate complaint. I think whether he should be refunded depends on whether his claim "people have had their hands declared dead for simply touching a cell phone" are true. And I said as much before. As far as my ideas about the rule being to lenient, I don't think you would argue that it is within the realm of common sense to assume a cheater would use any advantage he felt he could get. And similarly it is within common sense that at one of the biggest poker events of the year cheaters are going to try to cheat. So it would make sense to do everything reasonable to prevent them from gaining any advantage.

[GrinderMJ 0]

Who cares if he's technically correct? Quit being a bitch Singer, if you have top set, you don't say a word. Grow up.

[gumbyh 0]

Who cares if he's technically correct? Quit being a bitch Singer, if you have top set, you don't say a word. Grow up.

Telling Singer to grow up coming from a kid. Singer was upset because why the floor was deciding what to do he told the player he clearly didn't want the guy to call thinking the floor was going to rule the hand dead. So lets grow up and stop calling David a ***** when he hasn't said anything negative about the guy or the dealer. He is just trying to find out why some people get penalized and some don't. Think before you type.

[doublemeup 0]

The whole point of the rule is to not allow players to text to other people while involved in hands. i.e. if your friend was standing behind david singer and could see his hole cards and texted them to you while you were playing your hand. Singer is clearly right and the fact that Effel wouldn't acknowledge that he would've made the same ruling as the floor makes it pretty easy to see that they made a mistake and Effel knows it.

[gumbyh 0]

The whole point of the rule is to not allow players to text to other people while involved in hands. i.e. if your friend was standing behind david singer and could see his hole cards and texted them to you while you were playing your hand. Singer is clearly right and the fact that Effel wouldn't acknowledge that he would've made the same ruling as the floor makes it pretty easy to see that they made a mistake and Effel knows it.

Amen.

[Ward 0]

Telling Singer to grow up coming from a kid. Singer was upset because why the floor was deciding what to do he told the player he clearly didn't want the guy to call thinking the floor was going to rule the hand dead. So lets grow up and stop calling David a ***** when he hasn't said anything negative about the guy or the dealer. He is just trying to find out why some people get penalized and some don't. Think before you type.

dave is that you? settle down

[GrinderMJ 0]

Telling Singer to grow up coming from a kid. Singer was upset because why the floor was deciding what to do he told the player he clearly didn't want the guy to call thinking the floor was going to rule the hand dead. So lets grow up and stop calling David a ***** when he hasn't said anything negative about the guy or the dealer. He is just trying to find out why some people get penalized and some don't. Think before you type.

Lol, David Singer is definitely only trying to honor the integrity of the long standing cell phone rule at the WSOP, get real. David Singer clearly said "I have a drawing hand, I don't want him to call". Do you really think that if he had the nuts he would lobby this hard to have the guys hand ruled dead? I think not, I bet he would sit there quietly and scoop the pot. HE made a huge deal only trying to ensure that he got the best possible ruling for himself and to screw over a player who did nothing other than quickly silence his ringing cell phone without looking at it. David Singer essentially tries to completely screw over an innocent player in the biggest event of the yaer because he doesn't want to get it all in with a pair and flush draw. In my book, anybody who tries to take advantage of a petty rule and screw over another player is most certainly a classless piece of garbage. So calling him a bitch may be out of line, but he is 100% classless for trying to pull this.Also, the guy already announced call when Singer said that he only had a drawing hand, the guy made the call and Singer tried to have his hand ruled dead so that he could double with no showdown.double edit: Age has nothing to do with being able to rationally look at situations and call out people for acting in a pathetic fashion.triple edit: Technically within the guidelines of the rules he is correct, but it's the competent floormen and TD's who can look past inane rules and find out what really happened and make a fair ruling.