Proiftable Bluff Or Stupid Play?

[canicount 0]

I've been sitting at the table for a few hours. I have a definite TAG image, respect around the table for my game play.MP1 is Weak/Tight, He will fold to pressure put against him.BB is a fish of all fish, will call with anythingSB is TAG, I have been watching him play and respect his play of anyone at the table.Stack sizes:MP1: $440HERO (CO): $370SB: $500BB: $400Preflop: Hero is CO with 9 , 7 3 Calls, Hero Calls $2, SB/BB Check/CallFlop: 10 , 8 , 4 SB Bets $15, BB Calls $15, MP1 Calls $15, Hero calls $15Turn: 2 SB Bets $25, BB Calls $25, MP1 Calls $25, Hero Calls $25River: A SB Bets $20, BB Folds, MP1 thinks, then Calls $25, Hero Raises to $100I am just curious if you think this raise is out of line. I don't make a habit of bluffs such as this but I felt the timing was perfect. MP1 is weak in this hand and folding to this re-raise. He does not have a flush I am certain.SB lead out on all streets and a very tiny river bet. It is clear I am on a draw and feel that my line looks very much like a made flush.Thoughts?

[sabes99 0]

i think the limp pf with this hand is a little strange, but you're pretty deep so i guess it's okthe flop call is pretty automatic i think even if you discount spades as outs because people have already chucked a good amount of money into this pot, thanks to the overbet and subsequent calls...again, if you're going to call you have to be careful of a spade coming offi think your call on the turn is pretty marginal, only because with three opponents in the pot, if you catch a jack you won't have the nuts, and you can pretty much count on needing the nuts in this pot...at least one opponent is drawing to spades most likely, and someone could easily be drawing to a better straight, especially the BB, since he could have anything...there's no reason that he can't have Q-9, which would kill your jack as an out...i probably fold here, there's too many ways for you to lose significant chunks of money with a second-best handon the river, your thinking is clear i guess, but only because you think MP1 doesn't have a flush...the big problem with making this bluff is that the SB doesn't necessarily have nothing, he could be making a weak lead with a big hand, which happens often at small limits because they try to keep you in the pot and guarantee themselves that they will make some money on the hand...honestly if i were going to make this play i would have raised more to make it clear that i was trying to get the most money i could out of the handin truth, the play is very risky, but if you have nothing you have faith in your reads i guess

[Kid DynOmite 0]

well, i would NEVER make this play... but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Thing is, I've never played limits high enough that players were good enough that I would HAVE to do something like this. Find the weak players and take their money either by bulling over their weak hands, or having them pay off your big hands. Frankly, I don't think you have to do this at 1-2 to be a very winning player. It's very possible that sb has a flush. After his flop bet i put him on a flush draw, personally. I do agree with the first responder that you need to make your reraise bigger so as to give the image that you LOVED that card. Depending on how tight he is, he might actually drop a smaller flush if you re raise him enough here. He calls with a hand like 35ss if the raise is only 80 more though. Might drop it if you move in.

[Money022 0]

Woah! What a horrible spot to try and bluff. You're trying to push out two players and your raise is fairly weak. I would be folding the river 100% of the time. I wouldn't bluff here even if someone had a gun to my head.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Woah! What a horrible spot to try and bluff. You're trying to push out two players and your raise is fairly weak. I would be folding the river 100% of the time. I wouldn't bluff here even if someone had a gun to my head.

agree,bet 150 if you want to push people out.. if not, dont do it at all.p.s.I play rama everyday. are you a regular?

[sierradave 0]

Interesting spot for the squeeze play. The river bet from sb seems like a blocking bet to me, I expect he's going to fold to your raise. So the real question is what you put MP1 on. You mention he'll fold to pressure, but what range of hands do you have him on here? Did his pause seem more like call vs raise or call vs fold?I doubt I'd make this river bluff against two players, but it seems like a decent spot regardless. Worst case scenario, given your TAG image, is that you get called and give players a hell of a lot more to think about when you raise them on the late streets in other hands. And if the bluff works 30% of the time it's profitable. Yeah, I think there's profit in it, so long as you have a TAG table image.

[bdc30 0]

The words "profitable bluff" and "$1/2NL live" should never be used in the same sentence.(along with "monster laydown")

[Footballguru 0]

umm wow. i cant beleive how much bashign your receiving. I think this is well timed bluff with solid logic. I rarely see a good player who i "respect" lead out for a miniscule bet on the river with a strong hand. And your read on the other player is that he is folding. I think I make this raise to 125, 100 on top. But all in all, i like your bluff here. Makes sense with your line, and you have reason to beleive that neither player is strong.

[Money022 0]

umm wow. i cant beleive how much bashign your receiving. I think this is well timed bluff with solid logic. I rarely see a good player who i "respect" lead out for a miniscule bet on the river with a strong hand. And your read on the other player is that he is folding. I think I make this raise to 125, 100 on top. But all in all, i like your bluff here. Makes sense with your line, and you have reason to beleive that neither player is strong.

For one the raise is too small in relation to the pot. I wouldn't be surprised to see the player in the middle who called the $25 bet on the flop make a call with a small flush. Considering players at this limit make all kinds of stupid calls, you get called by a lot of hands that have you beat.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Raise a bit more. The only other thing that might be a problem with your bluff is that the SB has shown some strength, so unless his river bet was a desperation one, he may have 2 pair or set often here, and might just have to look you up.But to answer the bigger question, yes, I think with your image making a timely bluff in situations similar to this one can make some money.

[mtdesmoines 2]

I've been sitting at the table for a few hours. I have a definite TAG image, respect around the table for my game play.MP1 is Weak/Tight, He will fold to pressure put against him.BB is a fish of all fish, will call with anythingSB is TAG, I have been watching him play and respect his play of anyone at the table.Stack sizes:MP1: $440HERO (CO): $370SB: $500BB: $400Preflop: Hero is CO with 9 , 7 3 Calls, Hero Calls $2, SB/BB Check/CallFlop: 10 , 8 , 4 SB Bets $15, BB Calls $15, MP1 Calls $15, Hero calls $15Turn: 2 SB Bets $25, BB Calls $25, MP1 Calls $25, Hero Calls $25River: A SB Bets $20, BB Folds, MP1 thinks, then Calls $25, Hero Raises to $100I am just curious if you think this raise is out of line. I don't make a habit of bluffs such as this but I felt the timing was perfect. MP1 is weak in this hand and folding to this re-raise. He does not have a flush I am certain.SB lead out on all streets and a very tiny river bet. It is clear I am on a draw and feel that my line looks very much like a made flush.Thoughts?

In my experience, you can bluff one person out of a pot, but not a lot of them. Two is not a lot, but I say you get called here often enough to make this a losing proposition

[Lavitz 0]

I can't believe how many people are hating on this play. If SB is solid TAG then this is almost always a blocker bet and MP is obviously dead money. This is such a standard representation of the flush. My only problem is that river raise might not have been high enough.If you post this from SB's perspective and he has a hand like 2 pair, almost everyone will give the advice to fold. Which is generally correct advice because this is rarely a bluff.

[Merby 3]

I stand on the "Good play" side. I would recommend raising *a little* more. I know at a live game, betting or raising $100 is easy (just push a stack of reds across the line). But you must try to price out moderate holdings without looking like you're trying to price out moderate holdings.Try a raise in the neighbourhood of {$120 - $150}

[Merby 3]

River: A SB Bets $20, BB Folds, MP1 thinks, then Calls $25, Hero Raises to $100

I liked the river action. Nice of MP1 to donate an extra $5 to the pot for no reason.

[holymackeral 0]

Looks fine to me. Maybe go a little bigger.

[NoSup4U 0]

I love all streets. I definitely see a flop on the button, I definitely call the turn the pot is gigantic.I love the river bluff. You're really only up against one guy cause MP as you said doesn't seem likely to have the flush, and clearly wants to fold anyway. But pot is like 220 here and you're raising $75. I call you with a set or top 2 there for those odds. Raise bigger. I like the thought process behind this.The only downside is, you need to KNOW that the first guy is able to lay down a hand. Like, if you've never seen him make a decent fold, I don't like risking a buyin to find out he can't fold AT here.Mark

[David_Nicoson 1]

I stand on the "Good play" side. I would recommend raising *a little* more. I know at a live game, betting or raising $100 is easy (just push a stack of reds across the line). But you must try to price out moderate holdings without looking like you're trying to price out moderate holdings.Try a raise in the neighbourhood of {$120 - $150}

On the subject of physical chips, I sometimes imagine that I can influence the weak-minded (to use Obi Wan Kenobi's words) by taking advantage of how the dealer pulls in the bets. Suppose we say raise here, throw out the $25, and then contemplate an amount. The dealer pulls in all of the chips. Then we raise something. The stack of 5 red isn't there to remind the opponents of their sunk cost (which shouldn't matter, but does psychologically). It's somehow easier to call 75 more to make 100 than simply 75.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I don't hate the play, but I'm never a fan of trying to bluff out multiple opponents on the river, especially in a game where they may not be observant enough to realize everything that is going on.As long as you view the first guy's bet as weak, the river raise is ok. I think you gotta make it more money though, like $125 or $150 on top to really ensure that you're shutting out two pair hands.If you repeated this hand over and over again, I'd expect that you'll lose money in the long run primarily because of your river bet size. The overall thought process is very good though.

[Kawishiwi 0]

i think the limp pf with this hand is a little strange, but you're pretty deep so i guess it's ok...there's no reason that he can't have Q-9, which would kill your jack as an out...in truth, the play is very risky, but if you have nothing you have faith in your reads i guess

I feel that calling the previous streets was fine. I see no reason to think that a jack is not an out here. Q9 is a very odd holding to be semibluffing or calling such large bets with, the stab for a gutshot just doesn't make sense. This is just out of curiosity, can anyone see hero raising postflop as a semibluff? Granted there is a lot of money in the pot and people have already bet and called this street, but it is a weak board. I think that realistic holdings for the villains in this hand are no better than flush draws and pairs with weak kickers. What do you think?

[canicount 0]

Hey Guys,Thanks for all the replies.In retrospect I think a raise to $120 or $125 is probably more effective as has been suggested.It turns out SB has J 2 so he made the call and MP+1 Folded as expected. Unlikely that SB folds to any amount of pressure with that hand, but I still like my logic behind it.Royal: Not a regular at Rama, closer to Niagara but sick and tired of a $100 buy in limit for a 1-2 game so I'm transitioning to Rama. Just hate the drive.

[Lavitz 0]

Hey Guys,Thanks for all the replies.In retrospect I think a raise to $120 or $125 is probably more effective as has been suggested.It turns out SB has J 2 so he made the call and MP+1 Folded as expected. Unlikely that SB folds to any amount of pressure with that hand, but I still like my logic behind it.Royal: Not a regular at Rama, closer to Niagara but sick and tired of a $100 buy in limit for a 1-2 game so I'm transitioning to Rama. Just hate the drive.

I think SB made a bad play betting that turn with all those flop callers. He really hates getting reraised and he can't even be sure with 3 callers if he has the best flush draw.Oh well.