Push The Passive Kid Into Oncoming Traffic?

[Royal_Tour 0]

1/2 NL live.i have been card dead, so i appear to be TAG.a regular player shows up. He is a young kid who is TAG but also passive post flop when he holds marginal hands. He has respect for my game, always talks to me, asks how my sessions go. Last time we tangled in a big pot i showed quads. (about a week ago)stackshero- 350villain - 180 (been there for about 45 mins.)I pick up a useless Q,10 on the button.villain limps in EP. 3 more limps and hero raise to 15 in hijackfolds to villain, villain calls. everyone else folds.HU. pot around 40.flop is J,10,4 2 diamonds.villain check, hero bet 30. villain calls. turn is 3 spades. villain check.hero goes all in. thoughts?

[Snamuh 0]

What hand that is currently beating you do you think he will fold? AT maybe? Will he stack off with something like QJ-AJ? I'm not sure, I think I'd need to know the player more. This play could be profitable though after that turn check.

[Royal_Tour 0]

What hand that is currently beating you do you think he will fold? AT maybe? Will he stack off with something like QJ-AJ? I'm not sure, I think I'd need to know the player more. This play could be profitable though after that turn check.

he folds all PP's, any 10, any QJ, KJ AJ. and most importantly any draw.

[sabes99 0]

he folds all PP's, any 10, any QJ, KJ AJ. and most importantly any draw.

if so then shoving should be pretty easy, since you just don't put people on two pair or better when they c/c the flop and check the turn

[David_Nicoson 1]

You're in the hijack or on the button?

[koolromeo 0]

j-10 is the only hand you have to worry about

[gfdsa146 0]

whos the hero? you or the kid?

[Royal_Tour 0]

You're in the hijack or on the button?

sorry, hijack. i typed in button cuz as i was thinking about the hand, i remember how i was in LP and no one behind me called.

[Royal_Tour 0]

whos the hero? you or the kid?

hero is always the poster.how does that not make sense to you?

[Snamuh 0]

he folds all PP's, any 10, any QJ, KJ AJ. and most importantly any draw.

I like the shove then as long as you don't do it too often so you can sell it!

[NEtwowilldo 0]

I don't like the shove.You don't want him to fold if he has a draw. This is a pretty useless play, as you have turned your decent hand into a bluff. You're only getting called if you're beat.

[Lavitz 0]

he folds all PP's, any 10, any QJ, KJ AJ. and most importantly any draw.

Obviously if he folds all this then this is always +EV. You just listed 95% of his possible holdings. Realistically, I think he would be inclined to call with strong draw hands like an OESFD. I think the only hands he calls with if he respects you are 10J, a strong draw and bottom set (he's never showing up with JJ/1010 here). It's sort of risky and if it's against an unknown I really don't like it but if he will laydown against you and respects you then I think it is fine. You are turning your middle pair into a bluff though basically.

[RunItTwice? 0]

Based on the hands you said hes likely to fold, there should be potential here for this to profitable play in the right spot. But with that said,based on how this hand played pre, you could easily be staring at a small set in my opinion. As the turn is not a scare card for him to check to you,if he thinks you are going to put chips in

[project240 0]

I think this play is pretty player dependant. I know where I play, there are many players who will almost never fold a jack here and there are some who will fold K-J assuming you have an overpair which I assume you're trying to represent. Assuming your read on him is on and he folds Q-J, K-J type hands, I think this is a good bet.

[Money022 0]

he folds all PP's, any 10, any QJ, KJ AJ. and most importantly any draw.

I think this range is a fairly safe assessment. Based on that I like the shove, unless the J is the non diamond and he has AJ/KJ of diamonds. If that were the case you'd think he would have come over the top on the flop, so you can discount those. I like the shovel.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I also liked the shovel here too. and he was torn by the push. he actually had his cards in his hand, ready to go in the muck.about a minute went by, and he was like. "god.. i hope you have kings or aces.... this is such a hard call".and he called with J,10 for top 2. which is so sick that he almost folded that. He said he thought i had kings or aces and was scared of a possible set of jacks. It was honestly the worst possible timing because i think this play works 100% of the time against this kid as long as he doesnt flop top 2, or a set.

[Footballguru 0]

1/2 NL live.i have been card dead, so i appear to be TAG.a regular player shows up. He is a young kid who is TAG but also passive post flop when he holds marginal hands. He has respect for my game, always talks to me, asks how my sessions go. Last time we tangled in a big pot i showed quads. (about a week ago)stackshero- 350villain - 180 (been there for about 45 mins.)I pick up a useless Q,10 on the button.villain limps in EP. 3 more limps and hero raise to 15 in hijackfolds to villain, villain calls. everyone else folds.HU. pot around 40.flop is J,10,4 2 diamonds.tevillain check, hero bet 30. villain calls. turn is 3 spades. villain check.hero goes all in. thoughts?

so your betting about 135 into a pot of abotu 100...hmmi honestly dont like this bet with this hand, unless you specifically can put him on a 1 pair hand that beats you. Whenever I make a bet i make sure I am doing it for a specific reason. Is your bet a bluff or a value bet? If you put him on a draw dont you want to allow him to stick around while still making a mistake in calling, betting maybe 60 bucks? You are forcing him to fold all his draws, and I mean if he folds AJ here then sure you made a good play, but you could have just checked behind and taken a free one to try and outdraw. i just dont see the point in betitng so much here unless you have a specific tell which you know he has a 1 pair hand that beats you.

[Royal_Tour 0]

so your betting about 135 into a pot of abotu 100...hmmi honestly dont like this bet with this hand, unless you specifically can put him on a 1 pair hand that beats you. Whenever I make a bet i make sure I am doing it for a specific reason. Is your bet a bluff or a value bet? If you put him on a draw dont you want to allow him to stick around while still making a mistake in calling, betting maybe 60 bucks? You are forcing him to fold all his draws, and I mean if he folds AJ here then sure you made a good play, but you could have just checked behind and taken a free one to try and outdraw. i just dont see the point in betitng so much here unless you have a specific tell which you know he has a 1 pair hand that beats you.

I dont understand any of your reasoning. 135 into 100 HU is perfectly fine. I play KK pretty similar here. He showed plenty of weakness. He knows i'm good enough to check behind with nothing when he calls my flop bet.and i know he is passive. He doesnt like to get involved in big pots. He's the type of player to check down a decent hand, because its not the nuts.If you can explain to me in detail how this play doesnt work, i will change my mind. But for now, he can only call the turn push with 2 pair or better. if he held QJs he would check/call the flop and check the turn in the same way. hoping to see a cheap showdown.This is one of those situations where you make a c-bet on the flop and get called, but the player still shows weakness on the turn.I was unlucky this time. He was showing weakness because he didnt like his hand. He honestly debated the call for a couple minutes thinking there is a chance that i have a set of jacks.

[Footballguru 0]

I dont understand any of your reasoning. 135 into 100 HU is perfectly fine. I play KK pretty similar here. He showed plenty of weakness. He knows i'm good enough to check behind with nothing when he calls my flop bet.and i know he is passive. He doesnt like to get involved in big pots. He's the type of player to check down a decent hand, because its not the nuts.If you can explain to me in detail how this play doesnt work, i will change my mind. But for now, he can only call the turn push with 2 pair or better. if he held QJs he would check/call the flop and check the turn in the same way. hoping to see a cheap showdown.This is one of those situations where you make a c-bet on the flop and get called, but the player still shows weakness on the turn.I was unlucky this time. He was showing weakness because he didnt like his hand. He honestly debated the call for a couple minutes thinking there is a chance that i have a set of jacks.

you missed my point, royal. Why are you making this bet? Is it a bluff? is it a value bet? The problem with your bet is that you shut out all draws/hands that are behind you, and are only going to be called by hands that have you crushed.

[Royal_Tour 0]

you missed my point, royal. Why are you making this bet? Is it a bluff? is it a value bet? The problem with your bet is that you shut out all draws/hands that are behind you, and are only going to be called by hands that have you crushed.

the whole point of this play is to take the pot down on the turn. To me, its a bluff. I know my 10's are no good, and i want him to lay down a strong jack.the other thing is if i make a bet of like 80 into this pot because i think my 10's are good, I'd be pretty committed to any raise or river lead out he makes.and i dont want to take the passive route of check/calling bets here. i feel i check call and lose to lots of jacks. but i can push lots of jacks off their hands.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Yeah, you know. I read the whole thread before posting. I like this play OK sometimes. And against the kid, it's probably going to pay about 80% of the time. But I do like betting a scare card more than a blank.

[Footballguru 0]

well, then this play is very read dependant. I don tthink that most players at 1/2 lay down kj,aj here. Especcially AJ. If you think he iwll fold AJ, then the play is fine, as a bluff.

[mtdesmoines 3]

well, then this play is very read dependant. I don tthink that most players at 1/2 lay down kj,aj here. Especcially AJ. If you think he iwll fold AJ, then the play is fine, as a bluff.

AJ doesn't fold, but AJ doesn't limp live much, either. Kid limped with his hand.

[Footballguru 0]

AJ doesn't fold, but AJ doesn't limp live much, either. Kid limped with his hand.

royal's read on the player seems to be that he will fold aj to this raise, putting royal ok qq/kk