kurt's jack 10 at the wpt........

[SplashMaster 0]

Yes and no - yes, surviving is most important, but if you survive with a severely short stack, you're going to be desperately looking to double up anyway, and you'll probably have to take the risk in a situation that is at best a coin flip. So I like taking the shot here, when you're a big favorite.

This is what I have been trying to get across.And I agree a raise is a better choice than a call, but I didn't think just raising would make him seriously think about folding. Say I raise his 3.5k to like 10k. Gives me 6 left, which commits me on the river, and I am quite sure he would call there. If I go all in, it's sending a clear message that I have the best hand and he's gonna need to draw out on me. Much more likely to get a fold. And for the people arguing about calling again, and waiting to see whether the river pairs the board again.... that is called PLAYING LIKE A BITCH!!!!You can't sit there in fear of a few cards when you have the best hand, just because it might go wrong. Stop being such pussies!

hey manI've done nothing but commend you for playing in this tourneynow your acting like a world beater, and a jerk-off.you played the hand like a newbie in a major tournament(which is what you are)so I guess I play like a bitch than huh?lets check my major tourney results and compare than with yours...oh yeah you have played in 113,500 in this spot, with the blinds is PLENTY of chipsYOU knocked yourself out of this tournamentI was trying to get some posters to lay off flaming you (if you read back in my posts) but your acting like a jerk-off now so get a gripyou made the worst possible play in that spot. you assured yourself of going home if this man hit his fullhousesee ya

[Suited_Up 2]

I didn't direct anything towards you, and thanks for trying to be civil about it, you are right that you have been.All I was trying to say is that waiting for another card is playing scared. If I won this hand, that thought would have never crossed anybody's mind. It's only the right play in so many people's head, because they know what the card was. If anyone would just call again here, they are slowplaying themselves into an early grave. Why should he have another chance to catch up? It's that simple.It's a weak, scared play to just call again... like it or not.Why aren't you in the thread about Daniel's hand telling him he should have just flat called down too?

[Guest]

Late response on page nine, but I would agree with what Kurt did. He went in with the best hand and it just didn't work out. No one is perfect and it happens. :x

[SplashMaster 0]

I didn't direct anything towards you, and thanks for trying to be civil about it, you are right that you have been.All I was trying to say is that waiting for another card is playing scared. If I won this hand, that thought would have never crossed anybody's mind. It's only the right play in so many people's head, because they know what the card was. If anyone would just call again here, they are slowplaying themselves into an early grave. Why should he have another chance to catch up? It's that simple.It's a weak, scared play to just call again... like it or not.Why aren't you in the thread about Daniel's hand telling him he should have just flat called down too?

thats such a different situationhe wins a 100,000 if he wins and he moved in on the flopits not playing scared, its playing smart.you know he has 3 aces, you know he is probably not folding (kickers dont matter)you have took all your control out of the hand on the turn if the river bricks you get paid, if it pairs your still in contention so in essence, what you did was give him a freeroll to take all your chips(assuming he wont fold on the turn, which was obviously the case)where as flatcalling the turn puts him in a spot where he has to call if a blank comes, and you escape with a board pairing.moving in was not the right playI really want to see dn, josh, or true pros take on this

[steve7stud 0]

Splash, it's pretty clear that we disagree about Kurts play here. I know that we respect each other which is a good thing. Not sure if you read my last post, but if you haven't.....check it out. I went into a bit more detail on why I think Kurt's play is correct.As far as how Kurt is reacting.....I don't think he's being a jerk. I know that he's a new player, but he feels that he made the right decision, and he's sticking to it. I'm usually the first person to tell someone to settle down when they are acting like a jerk. But I don't think he's out of line.

[SplashMaster 0]

I do respect you stevebut if he asks what can he beat on the river, what could he possibly be ahead of on the turn? and all his chips went inthats why he almost 100% will call the river when a blank fallshes not betting twice than giving up on the river when a maeningless card rolls off.your telling me if a 3 pops on the river and kurt bets like 6500-8500 this man will fold?I cant see it.we disagree, thats okand kurt I may have jumped a bit at you for the "playing like a b itch remark" its cool. I have no problem with you.steve, you talk to david o yet?

[Diabolical 0]

ok, lets say i'm the guy who busted you out. Let me think, you go all in on the turni have trip acesi cover you and have a little left over(can you tell me how much he had left over after the call please)If i win, i almost double up and i'm looking good for day 1 standardsif i lose, well i'm still alive and the blinds are lowI"M CALLING YOU!!!!!I"M CALLING YOU!!!!!I CALL!!!!!!!!!better for you to bet the pot on the turn and have survival money to make a comeback. You said "you knew he had trips" if you go with your instincts, you lay down if the board pairs.

[Mr Monkey 0]

but if he asks what can he beat on the river, what could he possibly be ahead of on the turn? and all his chips went inthats why he almost 100% will call the river when a blank fallshes not betting twice than giving up on the river when a maeningless card rolls off.your telling me if a 3 pops on the river and kurt bets like 6500-8500 this man will fold?I cant see it.

Splash is right, its common sense. If he called an all in on the turn he would have called a bet on the river if a meaningless cards came. I dont see how anyone could argue that. If he thought his hand was good on the turn how would a meaningless card on the river change is mind.

[Suited_Up 2]

I really do understand what you're trying to say there.But it just comes down to what I wanted from the hand.I either wanted a fold, or I wanted a lot of chips from the hand.If I just call, it makes it pretty obvious to him, that he's either beat, or we're splitting. And frankly, I think calling is playing too cautious. You can't always worry about the next card, especially thinking that he might fold. I figured he had an ace, but he could have had a K, or KQ, maybe KJ and was looking for a straight. If he had any hands like that, he would have folded there, and I would have won the pot.If he does have the ace, and decides to call, he will be way behind, and more times than not, I will win a lot of chips. That is what I wanted from a hand like this... It's the type of hand I was waiting for for the whole level. I'm sorry, but I didn't feel comfortable with the 18k I started the hand with, and if you were at this table, you wouldn't have either. Nobody can argue this point with me... Ante's are a killer, and this was one of maybe 2 or 3 hands that we saw without a raise preflop. At this point, people were raising 1200 minimum every hand, sometimes more. Having 18k that gives me maybe 8-10 hands I can play... It's very likely I could miss 8 flops and then be gone anyway. If I waited and did this with 13k it's just intensified. I wanted the chips on this hand... If I lose I lose, but I was ahead, and got my money in there in a good spot. That's all I can ask for. You have to be willing to die to win tournaments. There are so many more factors than his chips vs. mine, and the math of the situation. It has to do with my table makeup, and me being a shortstack at a table with 5 pro's.... do you think they wouldn't target me immediately? David O. was already on my ass. He called me with 25s... don't think for a second he was gonna let me get away with a whole lot of stealing to try and pad my stack up. I needed chips at this point, and when I have the best hand, that's when I plan on getting them. He got lucky, and that's all there is to it.I am really not sure how much more I can write about this, but you really need to start thinking about the situation as much as you think about the cards and the chips. Just because 13k seems like a lot with 400 blinds. It's not when you are putting in 50 every hand, and at least 1250 when you want to see a flop. I had to make the play I did, the fold equity made up for the uncertainty of the river.

[Diabolical 0]

some other things i would be thinking if i was the one with trip aces;so an ace hits the turn and this kid goes all in like he loved that card. I have the ACE!!!!maybe he has K,Q and hated that his two pair jus got conterfieted but still believes he has a winning handbut he checked the flopmaybe he's jus some internet player who is tryin to get cutehe looks youngdid they card this guy?who invented liquid soap and why?

[Guest]

Where are the pics??

[Suited_Up 2]

Where are the pics??

I didn't run around taking pics with everyone, lol.I have a pic with daniel and tj that will be emailed me probably today sometime, I'll post it when I get it.

[Mr Monkey 0]

the other guy did get lucky, but just because he got lucky doesnt mean u had to lose all your chips. if i was in that situation i might have done the same thing as you, but the fact is if you thought he had trip aces the better play was to call on the turn. he wasnt going to lay down trip aces, and he would have called a bet on the river if a meaningless card came.

[Suited_Up 2]

the other guy did get lucky, but just because he got lucky doesnt mean u had to lose all your chips. if i was in that situation i might have done the same thing as you, but the fact is if you thought he had trip aces the better play was to call on the turn. he wasnt going to lay down trip aces, and he would have called a bet on the river if a meaningless card came.

I didn't want him to call a bet, I wanted to double up with the best hand. Either that or win on the turn. I'll say it again... If he didn't hit the right card, nobody would have said a word. It's all hindsight. I was there in the situation as it was evolving... It's far too easy to make a safer play once you know the cards.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

the other guy did get lucky, but just because he got lucky doesnt mean u had to lose all your chips. if i was in that situation i might have done the same thing as you, but the fact is if you thought he had trip aces the better play was to call on the turn. he wasnt going to lay down trip aces, and he would have called a bet on the river if a meaningless card came.

I can't believe I'm responding in this thread because we are all just going in circles, but here goes. You are probably right monkey, the guy would have called a bet on the river. I agree there. But, he is not going to call an all in. He might call like 4k or 5k, not 16k. Suited_Up made a conscious decision that he wanted to either win the pot on the turn or make the guy call a large all in bet on the turn to suck out. Kurt would not have been satisfied only winning another regular-sized bet on the river, he wanted to double up or take it down immediately. I think that this is where the conflict may be happening in some of our discussions. Kurt wouldn't have been personally satisfied with just a few more K on the river, and many of the disputers apparently would have been.Edit: I see that Kurt has beat me to responding to the above quote. DOH!

[Diabolical 0]

hey man, i'm glad you had the experience. You are now a better poker player cause of it. And there is no shame when you learn and move on. I would say all of us are better cause of what happened to you. By talkin about this hand, it has made us all better poker players. I know i'm goin to remember this coversation when i get into a similar hand. And thats the point of a forum. If we all agreed, we wouldn't learn as much. :clap: :idea: :wink: :clap: :wall: :pray: :think:

[steve7stud 0]

I'm not quite sure how to phrase this, but I will give it a shot. There is a BIG difference between how a pro thinks, and how the average internet player thinks. I feel like I'm trying to help you understand that pros CAN lay down a VERY BIG HAND on the river, that has not improved. On the turn the other player has outs........Blank on the river......WHAT CAN HE BEAT?Best case scenario for 3 UNIMPROVED ACES, is a chop on the river.I think I'm officially done trying to discuss this, lol. Everyone has made great points though.

[JTPHS 0]

I think what they're saying is by calling the turn, the read will change. Therefore, it will allow the guy to smell strength and make a better read, and consequently, lay down on the river. This may be a good reason for a raise, not an all in, on the river. However, I think a raise on the flop might be even more deceptive if this is your goal. However, I think any raise might allow the other person to move all-in, especially on the turn, anyway. Therefore, you end up with the same result -- putting all your chips in with a chance to lose. I still feel that calling is the best play because making a bet on the river, maybe even not all-in, might look like some type of pot buy and he will call anyway. And, hell, even if he lays down, you've STILL picked up a decent sized pot. You don't necessarily have to double up here, just win a big pot. You might even be able to check-raise, check-call the river if your might think that your opponent puts you on a king or busted two pair (KQ), or even a K with a straight draw (KJ, K10), or even back-door draw that missed with a K or a Q in it. This would probably be a weak-play for any of these hands, however, I'm sure they could tell Kurt was new and he might be capable of these plays.So, either call and check-raise the river, or call and big bet on the river.all dependant on how aggressive the player is on the river.I'd lean towards betting the pot on the river. I'm sure if you got the call there and got to turn it over, those players might looks at you and go.. hmmm this guy's kinda tricky, and give you a little respect. And also be able to bluff a few pots later on with this same pattern. I personally like to mix it up like this against really good players who know me and take down pots that way.

[Mr Monkey 0]

I'll say it again... If he didn't hit the right card, nobody would have said a word. It's all hindsight.

Thats not trueit may be hindsight but calling the turn is better then moving all in.

[WaitingforMyRuca 0]

I do respect you stevebut if he asks what can he beat on the river, what could he possibly be ahead of on the turn? and all his chips went inthats why he almost 100% will call the river when a blank fallshes not betting twice than giving up on the river when a maeningless card rolls off.your telling me if a 3 pops on the river and kurt bets like 6500-8500 this man will fold?I cant see it.we disagree, thats okand kurt I may have jumped a bit at you for the "playing like a b itch remark" its cool. I have no problem with you.steve, you talk to david o yet?

But what determines what a blank card is? A 9 sure would seem harmless, but that obviously wasn't. Also he limped in from late position right? ( seriously) he did right cause i don't really remember. His kicker could have been anything. He easily could have limped against the blinds w/ Ace anything suited. So as long as the board doesn't pair he really doesn't know if he is beat. Say he bets like 8500 on the river, when a 9 comes off, then is raised. He's probably calling.

[Suited_Up 2]

I'll say it again... If he didn't hit the right card, nobody would have said a word. It's all hindsight.

Thats not trueit may be hindsight but calling the turn is better then moving all in.

If you want to play like a calling station. But when you have the best hand, you aren't supposed to just call it down and give people the chance to catch up.Why doesn't everyone see this?The only reason I did it on the flop is because I flopped the best possible hand with no flush draws possible. It's one of the few times a slowplay is ok. Once the turn paired the Ace, that goes out the window and you need to make a strong play. For all the reasons I have already mentioned as well.

[SplashMaster 0]

I do respect you stevebut if he asks what can he beat on the river, what could he possibly be ahead of on the turn? and all his chips went inthats why he almost 100% will call the river when a blank fallshes not betting twice than giving up on the river when a maeningless card rolls off.your telling me if a 3 pops on the river and kurt bets like 6500-8500 this man will fold?I cant see it.we disagree, thats okand kurt I may have jumped a bit at you for the "playing like a b itch remark" its cool. I have no problem with you.steve, you talk to david o yet?

But what determines what a blank card is? A 9 sure would seem harmless, but that obviously wasn't. Also he limped in from late position right? ( seriously) he did right cause i don't really remember. His kicker could have been anything. He easily could have limped against the blinds w/ Ace anything suited. So as long as the board doesn't pair he really doesn't know if he is beat. Say he bets like 8500 on the river, when a 9 comes off, then is raised. He's probably calling.

yeah the 9 would be a" blank" but thats how it goes3/44 unseenim still not changing my mind, whether he won the pot or not, I dont like the playI'm done now :wink:

[SplashMaster 0]

hey steve,lets make a plan to play a session or 2 during the wsopI have been playing the aladdin 1-500 buy-in nlh game (2-5)I was staked the first night(wed) and won 1572. the second night I was staked again and won 350.last night I went on my own and lost 275but I have a 700 br right now, and trying hard not to blow it on mlb or the machines, I really want to play some sats for mirage and wsop coming up.

[Mr Monkey 0]

I'm not quite sure how to phrase this, but I will give it a shot. There is a BIG difference between how a pro thinks, and how the average internet player thinks. I feel like I'm trying to help you understand that pros CAN lay down a VERY BIG HAND on the river, that has not improved.  On the turn the other player has outs........Blank on the river......WHAT CAN HE BEAT?Best case scenario for 3 UNIMPROVED ACES, is a chop on the river.I think I'm officially done trying to discuss this, lol.  Everyone has made great points though.

another big differenence between how a pro thinks and how an internet player thinks is that if a pro knows he going to get called the pro will usually never want to be all in if their is a reasonable chance the caller will improve to a hand that beats the pro. i still believe that if the guy called an all in on the turn with trip aces he would have called a river bet. Steve I understand what u are saying but i just dont think the guy with trip aces would fold on the river if he called an all in on the turn.

[Suited_Up 2]

I'm not quite sure how to phrase this, but I will give it a shot. There is a BIG difference between how a pro thinks, and how the average internet player thinks. I feel like I'm trying to help you understand that pros CAN lay down a VERY BIG HAND on the river, that has not improved.  On the turn the other player has outs........Blank on the river......WHAT CAN HE BEAT?Best case scenario for 3 UNIMPROVED ACES, is a chop on the river.I think I'm officially done trying to discuss this, lol.  Everyone has made great points though.

another big differenence between how a pro thinks and how an internet player thinks is that if a pro knows he going to get called the pro will usually never want to be all in if their is a reasonable chance the caller will improve to a hand that beats the pro. i still believe that if the guy called an all in on the turn with trip aces he would have called a river bet. Steve I understand what u are saying but i just dont think the guy with trip aces would fold on the river if he called an all in on the turn.

That's more hindsight. IF. No way to know he was going to call it though.