NEtwowilldo 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 The game is 10-20 NLHE at a local card club. Which is much higher than my usual 1-2/2-5, but the smaller games weren't running tonight, so I jumped in the "big game" with the highrollers. Kind of a mistake.I bought in for $1200 and was up to over $2000 in the first few hours. Here's the hand.The first player in this hand is Raj Patel, winner of the WPT event at foxwoods this past April and $1.4 million dollars. The other guy in question is a local pro, with some good finishes at other foxwoods tournaments, and a regular 10-20 NL player. So there are a bunch of limpers, and I am in the SB with 6 4 . I flick in the $10 and we see a multiway flop. 6 4 3 . I lead out for $60. Raj calls. The button makes it $260. I reraise to $660. Raj folds. The other guy then asks me, how much I have left, ~1400, and then asks me if he calls, will I push all in on the turn. I say, well that depends what the turn is. He calls the $400.Turn is the 5 . Pretty much the worst card in the deck.Now what?Results to come. Link to post Share on other sites
code1390 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Wow. Does he seem like the type of guy to limp with 57? Was he limping into alot of pots? How many people limped in before it got to the button? Link to post Share on other sites
Cappy37 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Turn is the 5 . Pretty much the worst card in the deck.Worst card in the deck for whom? I don't think we can automatically assume we are behind. If he's drawing to a straight, he already has a 5 (I don't see our villain raising that flop on a gutshot when he could finish the action with a call), so the 5 most likely does not help any straight draw. The only way the 5 hurts you here is if he's got 65 and makes a better two pair. If he's got 45, he's now made a worse two pair. If he's got 5-7, he's waaaay ahead already, but that turn scares the bejeeezus out of him.As for the flush, is he limping a suited ace on the button? It's possible. Perhaps he paired the board and has the ace of spades, planning to make a move on the turn knowing you can't have the nut flush (not very likely).Your other possible stumbling block is a set, and him asking you how much you had left and your plans for the turn could point this direction, with him feeling more comfortable putting all the money in with only one card to come. That 5 of spades just made straights and flushes possible, you can quite possibly move him off the hand repping the flush/straight. This board is no longer "set friendly". Your two pair also make a set far less likely, with pocket 3's the only likely candidate. I don't think he can call that board with a set of 3s now, but I haven't seen the guy play, you have.Go with your read, I guess. You have good options here. That 5 is a scare card, but not necessarily just for you. You can push him off quite a few hands. You can already be ahead of quite a few hands. You can rep a better hand than he most likely has. Perhaps your best move might even be to check - a sign of strength if he is putting *you* on the draw. If he fires, you can always come over the top, or you can also see a free river (if you want to) if your check scares him into checking behind.Of course, one of the cardinal rules of poker is to never go broke in an unraised pot. Any duece or seven beats you, any flush beats you, and any set beats you, although you have a whopping 4 outs to redraw to if called. The fancy shmancy play is to c/r all in to rep some form of the nuts, but that might pot commit him anyways, which doesn't help us at all. Arguments can be made for checking, leading out weak, or going all-in. I'd check, see what he does, and decide if I'm going to stick it all in/call it all in based on his action. But in the future, steer clear of NL games out of the bankroll that feature tourney pros with 7 figure checking accounts. Link to post Share on other sites
NEtwowilldo 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 Wow. Does he seem like the type of guy to limp with 57? Was he limping into alot of pots? How many people limped in before it got to the button?1. OTB, sure.2. Some, not all. Definitely not weak/passive though if that's what you were getting at3. Idk, four maybe. Link to post Share on other sites
code1390 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Listen to cappy. Its too late for me to think. Link to post Share on other sites
Cappy37 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Listen to cappy. Its too late for me to think.lol. I'm adding my 2 cents, I'm not the go-to guy for advice. This is as marginal as situations get, I don't think there is a right answer on this one. Any bet short of all in is going to look like a scared tester bet. Checking might be the right play, because if he checks behind you can usually consider yourself either 1. ahead on the hand or 2. he's unsure if his set/straight is good, which, if you can read, to allow you to push or C/R the river with confidence that he'll seriously ponder folding. On second thought, I've got too much tourney player in my blood. I just can't tell you to to commit yourself to 2 pair on a board that coordinated. Unless villians comes of as the likes to gamboool type, I'd check, get one last read, and most likely fold begrudgingly. Link to post Share on other sites
CBass1724 1 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 He has 7-8 of spades, RUN.It seems like you could easily put him on a flush draw with his raise on the flop. I don't think he is doing that with top pair. As2s could be likely or As5x, As6x.Check folding the turn is weak but could be the best play since you could very well be beat. Link to post Share on other sites
Skittles 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I vote puke, then check/fold. P.S. next time he asks if you are going to move in on the turn, think of the worst card in the deck for you and say, only if X card comes. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Of course, one of the cardinal rules of poker is to never go broke in an unraised pot.Bingo. Check fold. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Check-fold. You would never play a draw like this OOP and they probably know it. The ONLY hands that you might be beating now are 35 and 45 which had flopped a pair + OESD. You were possibly behind already but the way the hand as played out, it was more likely that he was drawing.You really can't beat anything anymore and your stack size necessitates that you just check-fold here. Link to post Share on other sites
sabes99 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 this is kinda sick, we beat are 6-3, 4-3, 5-3, and 5-4, and if we make a really bold all-in i think we'll get a set to fold...other than that, he has to have a straight or a flushthis is read dependent to me...if he wouldn't raise you with a draw then he had to have flopped a straight and not shoved the flop, so i would go with the hand if that were the case...if he's capable of having the draw i would probably c/f Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Also, I'm sure you know this, but making a jump up 2 levels from a game that you have played regularly, especially from a 2/5 to a 10/20 game is not a good idea. The caliber of play is so much different and you're just gonna get beaten up becuase they'll figure out that you're out of your league there and that most of the time, you're gonna face bigger bets and raises becuase they know the money scares you.I like taking shots, but going up from a 2/5 game to a 10/20 NL game is usually just suicide. Link to post Share on other sites
Huskers12 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 i agree with the check-fold. Such a terrible turn card--ouch! But, id have to put him on the flush draw with a pair or with a straight draw. If he had a made hand on the flop, he would have put you in on the flop (set or straight, maybe even 2 pair). Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Also, I'm sure you know this, but making a jump up 2 levels from a game that you have played regularly, especially from a 2/5 to a 10/20 game is not a good idea. The caliber of play is so much different and you're just gonna get beaten up becuase they'll figure out that you're out of your league there and that most of the time, you're gonna face bigger bets and raises becuase they know the money scares you.I like taking shots, but going up from a 2/5 game to a 10/20 NL game is usually just suicide.Completely agree. Especially since you bought in short too, it's just too much to overcome. When I take a shot I make sure to have 2 max buyins on me, so that I hopefully don't look like scared money (even though I quite possibly am). Link to post Share on other sites
Tideplaya 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 I think it is possible he flopped a set and is just as worried about the turn card as you. You have about 1400 left after the flop, right?A bet of about 700 might take down the pot here.I can just as easily see checking and gauging his reaction. Your biggest problem is that it doesn't appear you have spades so he might be able to overpower you here even if his set of 3's is terrified.If you check and he bets, even if you read him as weak, you may not be able to come over the top and push him off a hand like top pair with the ace of spades and you'll have to sweat the river.You were probably beat on the flop and the turn card might be the worst for him because it either a) scares him and slows him down or it B) costs him a lot of money by scaring you away.My advice? Don't play that far over your head. You avoid tough spots against better players. Link to post Share on other sites
Huskers12 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Im dying to know what happened, post the result of the hand when u get the chance. Link to post Share on other sites
NEtwowilldo 0 Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share Posted July 2, 2007 OK so here's the updates.He checks behind on the turn.river is the A . I check and he bets 700.Now fold right?I don't have enough left to get him off his hand, barely enough to minraise, so that's out of the question, and there is no hand I can beat IMO.As for "tester betting" the turn, I would have to bet at least 800 since we each just put in 660 on the flop for it not to look weak, and any bet would commit me for my whole stack, and I don't want to commit my whole stack with this hand, so I don't think that's possible. I still finished up 200 on the night, not great, but better than losing. Is 1200 really a short-buy for 10-20? I would consider 500-600 a short buy, but 60 BBs is less than I usually buy in for, but not quite a short buy IMO. idk.Oh yeah, and that would be the last time I play in that game. It wasn't crazily hard, and I am NEVER scared money on the table, but I just really don't have the roll to be playing that high yet, so don't worry about that lol, thanks for the replies. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Is 1200 really a short-buy for 10-20? I would consider 500-600 a short buy, but 60 BBs is less than I usually buy in for, but not quite a short buy IMO. idk.Oh yeah, and that would be the last time I play in that game. It wasn't crazily hard, and I am NEVER scared money on the table, but I just really don't have the roll to be playing that high yet, so don't worry about that lol, thanks for the replies.Most 10/20 games have a MIN buyin of $800 or more and no max. $1200 is definitely a short buy for the game.The bolded section, whether or not you want to admit it, makes you scared money. If you're playing above your roll and above you're experience level, then you're risking more money than you should be in a game where you're likely one of the weakest players and therefore are at least somewhat hesitant to lose it. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Most 10/20 games have a MIN buyin of $800 or more and no max. $1200 is definitely a short buy for the game.The bolded section, whether or not you want to admit it, makes you scared money. If you're playing above your roll and above you're experience level, then you're risking more money than you should be in a game where you're likely one of the weakest players and therefore are at least somewhat hesitant to lose it.You cannot MIN BUY in any uncapped game and hope for much. IMHO. Especially $10/$20. You can min buy other games that you can check down to the river and then bet the nuts. The $10/$20 guys aren't gonna let that happen. You'll be rolling the dice for your wad every hand you play, and it only takes the one time. The one suckout. There's a pot limit unlimited buy game locally that I'd love to play. It's got a couple givers in it. But the guys who play it bring $30K-$50K with them. Any little bankroll less than that would get eaten alive in that game. Probably in one night. Link to post Share on other sites
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