2-5nl $400 Max

[tskillz187 0]

I'm trying to find some strategy hands in my 6 hour session last night. I think this is the only hand worth mentioning. My table image is tight aggressive which is accurate based on how everyone else is playing. Many of the people at my table don't even think about image though and everyone is drinking besides me.I have $800. Villain is LAG, drunk, and deeper than me, he also is directly to my left. He has been very aggressive and hasn't laid down very many hands pf. His stack has gone up and down and he's capable of bluffing at perceived weakness.I have KK UTG.I raise to $35, called by LAG villain and in two other spots by other loose big stacks.Flop 668 (rainbow) pot: $140ish I lead $75, villain calls, other two fold.Turn 668A (completes rainbow) pot: $290 I .... ? I decided to check here and see what was up with Laggy, I think if he's putting me on a hand that he'd think the A hit me. He checks behind.River 668A3. pot: $290Should I be value betting here? Is there anything to value bet? Should I be bluffing? Try and buy a cheap showdown? Surrender? I feel like if he gets checked to twice in a row I'm definitely going to see a bet, he has had a tendency to bet big too, at least pot sized bets with big and little hands.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Bet what you'd be willing to call. Make a strong read and do what your gut tells you if he raises.

[David_Nicoson 1]

The only hand that we could potentially bluff is a weak ace, and I'm led to believe from your description and this action that he won't lay that down. I don't think we can value bet. Check and maybe call, imho.

[tskillz187 0]

Check and maybe call, imho.

Based on? Physical read?

[David_Nicoson 1]

Based on? Physical read?

Yeah, physical read or something we notice in the bet size.

[Money022 0]

If he's been playing nearly every hand then his range is very big. I think leading would be fine, and I'd even check if I thought he was going to bluff at it. I'd be willing to check call up to a 1/2 pot bet against someone this loose.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Based on? Physical read?

This is a pretty standard check/call situation. He'll bet a trash hand if you check to him twice in a row, right? He'll be most ANY hands. Show as much weakness as you can by checking, and let him try and put some money into the pot. You'll snap him off.We're wondering what our line should be with a mediocre hand against an aggressive LAG with a big chipstack? This is a check/insta-call if I've ever seen one. If you have some reason for putting him on a big hand, that's one thing, but everything you've said so far leads me to believe he'll fire with any two, here.Wang

[Shimmering Wang 1]

If he's been playing nearly every hand then his range is very big. I think leading would be fine, and I'd even check if I thought he was going to bluff at it. I'd be willing to check call up to a 1/2 pot bet against someone this loose.

Why only a 1/2 size pot bet? The hero just said he's going to make a large, pot-sized bet with eights full or total trash, here.Wang

[Lavitz 0]

Blocker bet. I doubt he's capable of recognizing a blocker bet when he sees one so I doubt he'll push over one without the goods. If he's capable of bluff pushing over river bets (which even most maniacs usually don't do) then check/call.

[tskillz187 0]

This is a pretty standard check/call situation. He'll bet a trash hand if you check to him twice in a row, right? He'll be most ANY hands. Show as much weakness as you can by checking, and let him try and put some money into the pot. You'll snap him off.We're wondering what our line should be with a mediocre hand against an aggressive LAG with a big chipstack? This is a check/insta-call if I've ever seen one. If you have some reason for putting him on a big hand, that's one thing, but everything you've said so far leads me to believe he'll fire with any two, here.Wang

I don't mind check/calling in situations to control pot size when I have a semi-strong hand. But I don't, my hand is only beating bluffs right now, I can't think of a hand he would bet that I beat unless it's a bluff. I don't want to just check/call any bet and hope he's bluffing, in my opinion that's pretty weak poker. I mean this guy doesn't suck, PF his range is huge and after the flop it's narrowed a decent bit because he did call 1/2 pot bet and didn't raise it. I think his range includes 6's 8's something like 910, and then possibly 79, 57 although I'd be surprised he didn't raise me on flop or fire turn with those two, or 77, 99, 1010.Maybe your line is the best line and I just hate my situation, but I don't envy making a $300 call on the river in this spot. Do people think I can bet X amount and fold if he comes over the top? If so, what is X? I need to bet enough that I'm sure he doesn't bluff over the top of it or else I'm just donating chips and still not getting to showdown. Basically my goal in the hand is to prevent the bluff, I want him to muck when he's behind and not put me to a decision unless he has the 6, is this even possible?

[tskillz187 0]

Blocker bet. I doubt he's capable of recognizing a blocker bet when he sees one so I doubt he'll push over one without the goods. If he's capable of bluff pushing over river bets (which even most maniacs usually don't do) then check/call.

Yeah, I think I've made it clear that I think this is the best play. At least it's what I thought while sitting there, I don't know anymore though.Here's the next part of the hand. Hero bets $125, Villain thinks and raises to $300. I think for maybe 30 seconds and he calls for the clock, a pretty big D-bag move. Now usually when a schmuck calls the clock on you, ESPECIALLY this quickly, they are trying to piss you off in an effort to make you call. And his raise is smaller than I would have expected, it looks very value bettish.But all of this seemed so obvious so now I'm sitting there trying to figure out what he thinks of me. Does he really think I'm an idiot and don't know that this is why someone would call the clock? Does he really think I don't see how small his raise is compared to his other bets? Or is he trying some kind of double move with a value bet bluff and calling the clock so quick?So right around this point I'm thinking my bet might not have accomplished the things I wanted it to, but I'm facing calling the same size bet I thought I would see if I checked the river, only I have already put in over 1/3 of it.

[Lavitz 0]

Yeah, I think I've made it clear that I think this is the best play. At least it's what I thought while sitting there, I don't know anymore though.Here's the next part of the hand. Hero bets $125, Villain thinks and raises to $300. I think for maybe 30 seconds and he calls for the clock, a pretty big D-bag move. Now usually when a schmuck calls the clock on you, ESPECIALLY this quickly, they are trying to piss you off in an effort to make you call. And his raise is smaller than I would have expected, it looks very value bettish.But all of this seemed so obvious so now I'm sitting there trying to figure out what he thinks of me. Does he really think I'm an idiot and don't know that this is why someone would call the clock? Does he really think I don't see how small his raise is compared to his other bets? Or is he trying some kind of double move with a value bet bluff and calling the clock so quick?So right around this point I'm thinking my bet might not have accomplished the things I wanted it to, but I'm facing calling the same size bet I thought I would see if I checked the river, only I have already put in over 1/3 of it.

Ugh that puts you in a horrible spot. You're getting some good odds to call but he played it like a monster. I probably fold just because it's also possible he backed into an ace. Also, he probably knows ace is in your range and he's still reraising. I think I have to fold this but with those odds against a poor player I'm not sure.

[code1390 0]

That river raise screams eights full, but I'm not completely sure.

[IBFT 0]

I've only read the first post, I wanted to post my initial thought on the hand. I think you have to check/call on the river. Here's why:In your read of the villain, you said he would attempt to bluff perceived weakness. I understand why you checked the turn, but based on your description, i think the villain will read (and be somewhat correct) that the ace is a scare card for you. The fact that he checked behind really means nothing. If he's smart and he has an ace, he probably understands that its a wa/wb situation, and your play on the river will give him a better understanding of what to do. Thats IF he has an ace. Whether he has an ace or not, I see him making a bet or raise on the river, regardless. He's now thinking that you have a vulnerable hand and he's going to move you off the pot (or he has a big hand, but thinks you'll pay off his image). You have to keep the pot somewhat small and be willing to call a decent sized river bet here, i think. Unless he pulls a Gabe Kaplan and says 'what, you have an ace?' before he puts you all in.Hope this was coherent enough

[WonderfulSplash 0]

I don't mind check/calling in situations to control pot size when I have a semi-strong hand. But I don't, my hand is only beating bluffs right now, I can't think of a hand he would bet that I beat unless it's a bluff. I don't want to just check/call any bet and hope he's bluffing, in my opinion that's pretty weak poker. I mean this guy doesn't suck, PF his range is huge and after the flop it's narrowed a decent bit because he did call 1/2 pot bet and didn't raise it. I think his range includes 6's 8's something like 910, and then possibly 79, 57 although I'd be surprised he didn't raise me on flop or fire turn with those two, or 77, 99, 1010.Maybe your line is the best line and I just hate my situation, but I don't envy making a $300 call on the river in this spot. Do people think I can bet X amount and fold if he comes over the top? If so, what is X? I need to bet enough that I'm sure he doesn't bluff over the top of it or else I'm just donating chips and still not getting to showdown. Basically my goal in the hand is to prevent the bluff, I want him to muck when he's behind and not put me to a decision unless he has the 6, is this even possible?

I think if your goal is to prevent the bluff you are missing value. Check/calling this river would be my standard line against a lag here, but unfortunately calling $300 getting 2 to 1 isn't that great against his perceived range either. That said I'm definitely checking it to him and reevaluating from there. Bet size and reads will be important, but in absence of a strong feel that he is bluffing I may fold on a board this poor and look for a better spot.

[tskillz187 0]

I think if your goal is to prevent the bluff you are missing value.

Looking at this sentence that obviously appears true and that my idea seems silly. Definitely contradicts Theory of Poker wanting him to fold his hand when behind and call or raise when ahead. The thing is that I just want to get to showdown for as cheap as possible.Maybe I'm over thinking it, my standard play here with AK would be to check/call river without a second thought and KK and AK are basically the same at showdown in this hand.

[tskillz187 0]

I've only read the first post, I wanted to post my initial thought on the hand. I think you have to check/call on the river. Here's why:In your read of the villain, you said he would attempt to bluff perceived weakness. I understand why you checked the turn, but based on your description, i think the villain will read (and be somewhat correct) that the ace is a scare card for you. The fact that he checked behind really means nothing. If he's smart and he has an ace, he probably understands that its a wa/wb situation, and your play on the river will give him a better understanding of what to do. Thats IF he has an ace. Whether he has an ace or not, I see him making a bet or raise on the river, regardless. He's now thinking that you have a vulnerable hand and he's going to move you off the pot (or he has a big hand, but thinks you'll pay off his image). You have to keep the pot somewhat small and be willing to call a decent sized river bet here, i think. Unless he pulls a Gabe Kaplan and says 'what, you have an ace?' before he puts you all in.Hope this was coherent enough

Thanks for posting and stick around the forum some more, never too many people contributing to the NLH forum. I highly doubt he has an ace here just because he'd have to completely float the flop or have A8,A6. I don't think he's a floater either, he was much more into just trying to push you off on the same street.The reasons I think he is betting river is because he missed, because he knows his 89, 99, 77, or something is no good and he can only hope to push me off, or because he's huge and wants a call. I don't think the A really affects the hand too much either way.

[IBFT 0]

Thanks for posting and stick around the forum some more, never too many people contributing to the NLH forum. I highly doubt he has an ace here just because he'd have to completely float the flop or have A8,A6. I don't think he's a floater either, he was much more into just trying to push you off on the same street.The reasons I think he is betting river is because he missed, because he knows his 89, 99, 77, or something is no good and he can only hope to push me off, or because he's huge and wants a call. I don't think the A really affects the hand too much either way.

I agree that he probably doesn't have an ace (this is where the coherency issue was coming in). I just think its easier to pick off his bluff (or save money if he has a monster) with a check/call, because from your description of him, a bet on the river seems certain.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Just breezed through this.The reason that you don't value bet the river is that you're not representing much of anything here and you invite him to raise. It's unlikely that your hand is ever better than aces up here and it's rarely that strong. By checking, you're throwing him rope to take a stab at the pot. The ONLY hands that you're losing value from are those middle pairs that want to make a hero call. Every other bet comes from a hopeless hand or one that you can't beat anyway. I think bet/fold line and bet/call line just seem to be spewy here.I really think that you check and call a reasonable bet since there's enough of a chance that he was on some kind of draw or thinks he needs to bluff with a middle pair. Based on the way you've played it, it seems to be the only option available.Also, Zach the forum leader is sleeping on my couch. I am taking requests from all forum members on things that I should draw on his face in permanent marker.

[tskillz187 0]

Results: After his raise to $300 somehow I convinced myself that this was the same as check/calling which was my other option, and I convinced myself to call.He had 68.The session ended well for me though, yay.I think a "ZOMG $540 Stakeaments" line on his forehead would suffice.

[tskillz187 0]

Based on the way you've played it, it seems to be the only option available.

Oops. I didn't really catch this line on the first way through, how would you play it street by street?

[Acid_Knight 2]

Results: After his raise to $300 somehow I convinced myself that this was the same as check/calling which was my other option, and I convinced myself to call.

LOL. There's a reason that it's called a bet/fold line. If it's supposed to be bet/fold and turns into bet/call, we calls that the Naismith Special. It's also a losing play

[Naismith 0]

Also, Zach the forum leader

Man, that is loosely using the word, "leader".Feed him some more beer. That seems to energize him.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Oops. I didn't really catch this line on the first way through, how would you play it street by street?

I really think that I'd have made the same preflop raise, the same flop bet and the same turn check. Once the river comes out, I'm just gonna check-call him. I don't really know what else there is to do other than bet the turn and then check/fold the river, but that gives him a better opening if he has a draw.

[Lavitz 0]

Just breezed through this.The reason that you don't value bet the river is that you're not representing much of anything here and you invite him to raise. It's unlikely that your hand is ever better than aces up here and it's rarely that strong. By checking, you're throwing him rope to take a stab at the pot. The ONLY hands that you're losing value from are those middle pairs that want to make a hero call. Every other bet comes from a hopeless hand or one that you can't beat anyway. I think bet/fold line and bet/call line just seem to be spewy here.I really think that you check and call a reasonable bet since there's enough of a chance that he was on some kind of draw or thinks he needs to bluff with a middle pair. Based on the way you've played it, it seems to be the only option available.Also, Zach the forum leader is sleeping on my couch. I am taking requests from all forum members on things that I should draw on his face in permanent marker.

The 668 flop is not very drawy and you don't think a middle pair would be more likely to check behind then call a small blocker bet? Any middle pair in this situation should know that theyre rarley getting an ace to fold when the villian decides to check river and looks like he's gone into check/call mode and basically they're tuning their middle pair into a bluff if they bet big.