$50r

[Jordan 1]

Effective Stacks:Hero (utg+1): ~16.5kVillian (two to the left of hero): ~14.4kBlinds, 60-120.Reads:Villian has been playing well. He usually raises 2.x-2.8k the bb when opening and keeps pots small. He almost always fires on flops when he has riased pf, but slows down on turn/riv when it's right. He also made a call down with KT on a Qd8d8xQx board, when villian tried to bluff OOP. He has called one of my raises (I raised ep) and he folded on the flop. We've been staying out of each others way thus far. He has been one of the more active players, but clearly knows what he is doing.I have been playing pretty tight. I've been playing solid and received a few donations as it happens in these rebuy tournaments. I havent gone to war with any big stacks yet.Hand:We are past the rebuy period now.I open with 9d9h to $360, Villian calls, the rest fold.FLOP: Qc Jc 8h ($900)Hero bets $450, Villian calls.TURN: 9s ($1.8k)Hero bets $1.2k, Villian raises to $4.5k, Hero ...?What's our plan? What's his range?---- Jordan

[sixhands 0]

Fold, you are up against Ac 10c

[Jordan 1]

Fold, you are up against Ac 10c

I'd imagine villian would raise with this kind of draw on the flop...unless he thought I'd pay him off if a club came for a few bets...otherwise I think he raises a draw this big most of the time...although I guess he could try and keep pot small and try and either win the pot with making his hand, or taking it away on turn/riv.- Jordan

[Pivvy2001 0]

I'd imagine villian would raise with this kind of draw on the flop...unless he thought I'd pay him off if a club came for a few bets...otherwise I think he raises a draw this big most of the time...although I guess he could try and keep pot small and try and either win the pot with making his hand, or taking it away on turn/riv.- Jordan

you listed the 9S twice; I will assume that on the turn it was the 9c, which would have completed the flush draw; I think that there is a good chance that he calls the flop with a drawing hand (as compared to reraising, as he might have had just the clubs, or just a straight draw - i.e. KT) and there is a good chance he has hit; that said, I still make the call here, because your pot odds aren't terrible (considering the chances to fill up); you are not quite getting the proper odds to call (I don't think), but there are huge implied odds here because if the board pairds, he is still going to make a call of a decent size river bet with the straight (most of the time) and the flush (almost for sure); And if he has air and folds to the bet on the river then you were ahead all along;

[Jordan 1]

you listed the 9S twice; I will assume that on the turn it was the 9c, which would have completed the flush draw; I think that there is a good chance that he calls the flop with a drawing hand (as compared to reraising, as he might have had just the clubs, or just a straight draw - i.e. KT) and there is a good chance he has hit; that said, I still make the call here, because your pot odds aren't terrible (considering the chances to fill up); you are not quite getting the proper odds to call (I don't think), but there are huge implied odds here because if the board pairds, he is still going to make a call of a decent size river bet with the straight (most of the time) and the flush (almost for sure); And if he has air and folds to the bet on the river then you were ahead all along;

sorry, but fd didn't get there. I have edited the starting suits (which aren't really relevant).- Jordan

[foucault 0]

Effective Stacks:Hero (utg+1): ~16.5kVillian (two to the left of hero): ~14.4kBlinds, 60-120.Reads:Villian has been playing well. He usually raises 2.x-2.8k the bb when opening and keeps pots small. He almost always fires on flops when he has riased pf, but slows down on turn/riv when it's right. He also made a call down with KT on a Qd8d8xQx board, when villian tried to bluff OOP. He has called one of my raises (I raised ep) and he folded on the flop. We've been staying out of each others way thus far. He has been one of the more active players, but clearly knows what he is doing.I have been playing pretty tight. I've been playing solid and received a few donations as it happens in these rebuy tournaments. I havent gone to war with any big stacks yet.Hand:We are past the rebuy period now.I open with 9s9h to $360, Villian calls, the rest fold.FLOP: Qc Jc 8h ($900)Hero bets $450, Villian calls.TURN: 9s ($1.8k)Hero bets $1.2k, Villian raises to $4.5k, Hero ...?What's our plan? What's his range?---- Jordan

Out of position on a flop this coordinated, you gotta bet more if you're going to bet at all. A good player will float you with a ton of stuff and then put you in a rough spot as he does here on the turn. I think I'd vary my flop line b/w betting 700 and check-calling. The thing is that no better hand folds to a flop bet, and the worse hands that call it usually have a ton of equity against you (overcard(s) and draw(s)).Based on your description, I'd say he's very likely to have a T on the turn. His failure to re-raise pre-flop or raise such a coordinated flop suggests he doesn't have a big hand like QQ+, AQ, KQ, or QJ (though AQ/KQ could conceivable play pot control w/ position on the flop). Thus, his flop range is mostly draws and air that he's floating. On the turn, you could easily have a T, which makes me think his range will be polarized: either air that he can easily fold if you 3-bet or a straight (possibly even the nut straight) that he can easily call if you 3-bet. Raising a flush draw on the turn (and stuff like KQ falls into that category because it has outs against your 3-betting range that he'd rather not have to fold) is suicidal because he risks getting blown off of it. Air is somewhat less likely if you think he's staying out of your way, since that requires not just raising an obvious scare card on the turn but also floating the flop in the first place.I'd call and check the river. Fold to another bet (since you think he's not likely playing back at you) or raise if the board pairs.

[Yahkin 0]

Well, you describe him as playing a lot of hands, so his PF calling range can be pretty wide.AT/KT, AQ, QQ, JJ, TT. Since the PF call was pretty small compared to his stack, I can even see Q9s. We have 10 outs to win if he has the straight, and 2-3 to chop. (And are ahead of most everything else.) Some decent implied odds here since it appears he's playing for his stack...so we are calling 3k for a chance at a his stack and the dead money. Roughly 6-1. 13 outs is ~4-1. I can justify a call here. I'm leaning towards a c/f the river if it misses me. We still have a enough chips at this level to play a lot.

[NoSup4U 0]

I think villian goes to war with ATc on flop. I'd like to know positions here but I'm guessing his range is pretty wide. From your description I consider this to be a very good player.Just based on the fact that i think he's a solid player, I think all kinds of hands holding a T are possible. QTs, JTs, T9s, T8s. I think I would check/call the turn with outs, and evaluate river. I don't think you want to go to war on this turn oop with a 4 card straight out there.As played, I fold turn. I think if you've been tight and villian as been loose, and he is a good player, his range for you will include sets, and he knows that you view him as probably laggy/bluffer, so I doubt he is bluffing you here. And you aren't getting the right odds to call for your set, unless you are sure he'll pay you off, which is doubtful in my mind.Mark

[Pivvy2001 0]

Well, you describe him as playing a lot of hands, so his PF calling range can be pretty wide.AT/KT, AQ, QQ, JJ, TT. Since the PF call was pretty small compared to his stack, I can even see Q9s. We have 10 outs to win if he has the straight, and 2-3 to chop. (And are ahead of most everything else.) Some decent implied odds here since it appears he's playing for his stack...so we are calling 3k for a chance at a his stack and the dead money. Roughly 6-1. 13 outs is ~4-1. I can justify a call here. I'm leaning towards a c/f the river if it misses me. We still have a enough chips at this level to play a lot.

yep, that is where I am at as well, and if the flush draw has not hit (see above) I feel more comfortable that he might be trying to take it down with two pair or trying to scare you out of the pot; his read almost certainly does not put you on the straight, which I think encourages him to try to steal, but your hand is still strong enough to make the call here IMO;

[sixhands 0]

I'd imagine villian would raise with this kind of draw on the flop...unless he thought I'd pay him off if a club came for a few bets...otherwise I think he raises a draw this big most of the time...although I guess he could try and keep pot small and try and either win the pot with making his hand, or taking it away on turn/riv.- Jordan

I was mainly basing this on what you said about villain, you mentioned he liked to keep pots small.I have played these types of hands the exact same way, I would just call the flop with the draw knowing that you raised pre flop and bet the flop. I would give you the chance to bet again like you did.Now if I was in your spot I would fold but that's just me

[Jordan 1]

So, how many here think we can call and try and hit our boat...since we are still pretty deep and have the potential of being paid off?Or, do we not think those odds are here, since if I call, villian has to put me on a set...and can probably get away if I fire on a paired river?Also, anyone shove...?- Jordan

[Yahkin 0]

I'm not convinced you won't get paid off if the board pairs. Certainly he will put a set in your range if you call, but your betting pattern looks a lot like what someone on a nut flush draw would do as well. Your call could mean you are on the nut straight/nut flush combo draw, 2pr, maybe even a worse T than his if he's sitting on AT.

[jjgoldy5 0]

So, how many here think we can call and try and hit our boat...since we are still pretty deep and have the potential of being paid off?Or, do we not think those odds are here, since if I call, villian has to put me on a set...and can probably get away if I fire on a paired river?Also, anyone shove...?- Jordan

I call / re-evaluate on river. He could be making a move with a pretty wide range here, since the 9 is a scary card for anything you have without a 10.If you call, and he's making a play given your read, I think he's likely to give up on the river.This is never a shove.Tough one.

[StupidKid 0]

Firstly, sweet post. Really interesting good strat question. Secondly fast reply. In this spot the fact that opponent is a good thinking player may make me more inclined to think he's representing the ten. As NoSup4U said however, QTs ATsKTs9Ts8Ts.If you know that he's a good thinking player then is a bet even going to get paid off on the river? If you're not gonna be able to get him put any money in the pot then this is a fold on the turn. If you think you'll get a large bet paid off then I think a call is worthwhile.IMO though I fold turn (even though my gut tells me not to) - You still have a monster stack.

[gobears 0]

This is a tough hand to play OOP - if he's a good player then he'll float a lot of times with that flop to see what you do on the turn.I like the other guy's line of betting about 2/3 the pot or checking the flop and checking the turn despite making a set. I want as cheap a showdown as possible up until the river unless I hit my boat.As played, I fold since I'm OOP and not sure that I'll get paid off if I hit my boat. He's not giving us the right odds for a one card draw and I definitely think that a 10 is in his range.

[zimmer4141 0]

I think there are many different ways to play this hand.First off, I would bet bigger on the flop. This bet makes it too easy for him to float us to bluff the turn, and it makes it too cheap for him to call with weak hands that beat us like JT, QT, Q9, etc...On the turn, I like a check here. Checking here is mostly a pot control play, check/call his bet of around 1200-1400, then re-evaluate the river. If a blank hits the river and you think he won't fire 2 barrels without a T, then I fold. If you think it's likely, I call. If the board pairs, either check/shove or just lead out for 3k or so.

[....Ian.... 0]

he prolly has the other 2 nines and ur choppinbut seriously good post, judgin from ur assessment i dont think he's playin w/o a 10 here, if ur confident enuf to fold here and still make a run (which im pretty sure u are) then folding here stings but s prolly best

[foucault 0]

I was mainly basing this on what you said about villain, you mentioned he liked to keep pots small.I have played these types of hands the exact same way, I would just call the flop with the draw knowing that you raised pre flop and bet the flop. I would give you the chance to bet again like you did.Now if I was in your spot I would fold but that's just me

Jordan,Shoving = worse hands, most of which have <10% equity, fold, and better hands stack youI wouldn't "fire" a paired river, I would check-raise.

[StupidKid 0]

Check-raising removes value if you are going to call IMO, if he a straight - the paired board might scare him as a set is obv in your range and if hes jus testing you AQ or some hand like that he's going to check it down I would have thought bearing in mind Jordan described him as a good player.

[Jordan 1]

Good discussion here...I had to post this hand backwards..I was really "villian" here...so...hero (99) wasn't really me...I was just posting from his perspective...as that's the only way I could have posted this hand.I thought this hand was interesting cuz of how deep we were, and I was curious what some tourney players would plan to do here as you usually aren't playing 100bb+ deep.FWIW, "hero" (99) had 200k in cashes as well...so he has good results.---Ill see if more discussion comes, then add my actual thinking of the hand with my "real" hand...ie not 99...as again, I wasn't "hero" here, I was "villian".- Jordan

[timwakefield 68]

Interesting discussion, I'll add my input playing from 'hero's' perspective with the 99 (sneaky sneaky sir). I very often check the turn there, and call any type of reasonable bet. I think this both gives your opponent a chance to bluff at the pot, and generally gives you much better odds to fill up if he does have the straight. Of course that's probably a bit results-oriented (I want to check the turn because I know villain raised my bet).As played on the turn, very very tricky. I'm almost inclined to fold since it seems unlikely that our opponent will pay off more than a small bet if we do fill up (assuming he actually has the ten). The problem of course is that a 4-straight board is so easy to bluff at, and villain can very realistically just be representing here. The other problem with calling (other than not getting paid if you improve) is if you don't fill up - do you check-fold the river, assuming that your opponent will give up on a bluff but obviously bet if he has it? An opponent who bluffed at it on the turn may very well put in a big bluff on the river, since by checking the river you've basically told him you don't have a straight. I guess I could be inclined to put out a blocker bet if we miss on the river (in order to stop a bluff), because I really don't think you can count on an opponent who was bluffing on the turn to check behind on a raggedy river.

[tskillz187 0]

Apparently I suck, but if I have a very tricky very good player sitting two to my left in a deepstacked tourney like this, I'm going to call this turn raise and check/call the river as long as it isn't a club or a 10. I'll take my chances of him LAGging it up to not have to deal with him anymore and hope he hangs himself or move on. I think he can float this flop very often and try to apply pressure on the many scare turns.

[Jordan 1]

Ok, here is my hand and my thought process.I held Ts8s, so yes...I made the straight on the turn.The flop was really strange, I was 80% ready to raise his bet, but decided that I could easily call with my "draw" and then represent a lot of hands on the turn and make my hand a bluff. I don't just call here cause I have a gutshot, although being this deep that is ok, I call here planning to take the pot on the turn...but since I happened to hit my hand I'm obviously raising anyways.Now, I figured once I raised he'd most likely dump, but it was possible I could get him to call, which if he would have I would of probably put him on some sort of hand like AcKc, or a set, and lastly a straight...cause I'm pretty sure if he had a straight he'd shovel everytime.---I posted this hand cause we were so deep, and you dont get this that often in MTTs...and I wanted to see what the majority of the players thought about what to do with the set here. During the hand, he actually shoved on me, which I thought was by far the worst possible play, as there is absolutely no value to it. I only call with a straight (maybe top set, but I like never have QQ here based on PF play nor flop play..and I'd def. not make that turn raise with QQ on that board, so I think those factors would tell him I don't have a set here) and I fold everything else.If he thinks I'm bluffing, which I'm capable of, then he should just call and check/call the river...unless he doesn't think I can fire the river unless I have a straight. And of course, folding here I think it's pretty standard. I hadn't played back at him yet and from the hands he'd seen me play he should know that I'm obv not stacking off here light...so for him to put 100bb+ in the pot I thought was just stupid...I SHOVE I HAVE A SET....tourney thinking.I, of course, loved his shove.- Jordanno one always plays perfect, but this guy had 200k in cashes, and it still blows my mind that he actually put as many bb as he did into the pot on the turn. Just insane.

[jjgoldy5 0]

Ok, here is my hand and my thought process.I held Ts8s, so yes...I made the straight on the turn.The flop was really strange, I was 80% ready to raise his bet, but decided that I could easily call with my "draw" and then represent a lot of hands on the turn and make my hand a bluff. I don't just call here cause I have a gutshot, although being this deep that is ok, I call here planning to take the pot on the turn...but since I happened to hit my hand I'm obviously raising anyways.Now, I figured once I raised he'd most likely dump, but it was possible I could get him to call, which if he would have I would of probably put him on some sort of hand like AcKc, or a set, and lastly a straight...cause I'm pretty sure if he had a straight he'd shovel everytime.---I posted this hand cause we were so deep, and you dont get this that often in MTTs...and I wanted to see what the majority of the players thought about what to do with the set here. During the hand, he actually shoved on me, which I thought was by far the worst possible play, as there is absolutely no value to it. I only call with a straight (maybe top set, but I like never have QQ here based on PF play nor flop play..and I'd def. not make that turn raise with QQ on that board, so I think those factors would tell him I don't have a set here) and I fold everything else.If he thinks I'm bluffing, which I'm capable of, then he should just call and check/call the river...unless he doesn't think I can fire the river unless I have a straight. And of course, folding here I think it's pretty standard. I hadn't played back at him yet and from the hands he'd seen me play he should know that I'm obv not stacking off here light...so for him to put 100bb+ in the pot I thought was just stupid...I SHOVE I HAVE A SET....tourney thinking.I, of course, loved his shove.- Jordanno one always plays perfect, but this guy had 200k in cashes, and it still blows my mind that he actually put as many bb as he did into the pot on the turn. Just insane.

Rebuys are something I'm just getting into but I love them for this reason. I think a lot of players don't realize the differences in playing deepstack poker, since in most online tournies this only happens early on or in rare situations where big stacks face off. With that said, it is still slightly shocking that he would shove here, but even the best screw up hands.

[timwakefield 68]

Also, $200k in 'cashes' can still be a losing player - unless you see a pattern of big wins on his db or you know him.