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Let's Give Espn A Little More Flexibility.. Suggestions Welcome


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Look, we've seen Stud High, PLO, and even Razz final tables televised by ESPN. The powers that be have executed some very interesting innovations this year, the most noticable is running their low buy-in World Series of Hold 'Em events early in the day and offering their Stud, Omaha, Razz, and HORSE variants later in the day. The trend this has created is a noticeable percentage of the "name" players opting to skip a majority of the Hold 'Em events to play the latter, and (very) arguably more skill-based higher buy-in variants later in the day. The outcome of these trends is seeing more name faces in the latter event final tables. Last night we saw Eli Elezra, Dutch Boyd, Scotty Nguyen, David Sklansky, and Thor Hansen all deep in a WSOP final table that ended up in a drunkfest that must have been entertaining as heck. Well, we didn't see it.. And because it was stud hi/lo we are probably never going to see more than the rare videocapture snippets that might pop up on youtube or pokertube.How flexible exactly can the WSOP be? Final tables are almost exclusively run the day after getting down to the final 9 (or 8 in stud, 6 in shootout). Does the WSOP need to announce the events they air before the world series? Can we fly by the seat of our pants and pick 'em a little deeper in the field? Last year we did not get to see Phil win his tenth bracelet, we didn't get to see the 4 combined bracelets of Jeff Madsen and Bill Chen. There will always be a delicate balance of showing the stars of the past and trying to discover the stars of the future, but having options can only help us in the long run.Here's my idea for more flexibility: The travesty that was turning he HORSE Championship final table into a NLHE final table was obviously the wrong way to approach it, *but* it does lend itself to my concept of flexibilityNamely : Turn the final table of Stud Hi Lo and Omaha 8OB events into Stud High and PLO. This makes these events eligible for television. This gives us the *option* of including them if we get some strong final tables worthy of telecast. Thoughts, Opinions? Obviously, the split games are inherently different animals than PLO and Stud regular. But once you get shorthanded split games play a bit closer to the regulars. And mixed game players aren't going to suffer nearly as much for the change in format, and would most likely be agreeable if it meant a shot at TV.

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I think nl holdem is shown to much on tv. If they changed it to UNO on the final table.........

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the players are playing to win a bracelet and money, not for the purpose of being on tv (though they might also enjoy that benefit)the reality is that it is a travesty to change a tournament at the final table just to cater to a potential tv audience and it should never be doneperhaps eventually people who care about poker will stop watching the small hold-em tournaments and demand the others and there will be more different events shown, but to change a tournament at the last part is ridiculous for the participants

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the players are playing to win a bracelet and money, not for the purpose of being on tv (though they might also enjoy that benefit)the reality is that it is a travesty to change a tournament at the final table just to cater to a potential tv audience and it should never be doneperhaps eventually people who care about poker will stop watching the small hold-em tournaments and demand the others and there will be more different events shown, but to change a tournament at the last part is ridiculous for the participants
They knew the final table was going to be nl he ahead of time sooooooo......... it was not changed.UNO>POKER>CHECKERS<DOMINOS<PIZZA
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They knew the final table was going to be nl he ahead of time sooooooo......... it was not changed.UNO>POKER>CHECKERS<DOMINOS<PIZZA
change can be used in many ways; in this case, I meant that they changed the structure from HORSE to no limit, rather than changing it as if it was a surprise to the playersthe fact that the format changes at the final table, might not surprise the players but still reduces the authenticity and consistency of the event
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change can be used in many ways; in this case, I meant that they changed the structure from HORSE to no limit, rather than changing it as if it was a surprise to the playersthe fact that the format changes at the final table, might not surprise the players but still reduces the authenticity and consistency of the event
lol thats not what u said.
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Namely : Turn the final table of Stud Hi Lo and Omaha 8OB events into Stud High and PLO. This makes these events eligible for television. This gives us the *option* of including them if we get some strong final tables worthy of telecast. Thoughts, Opinions? Obviously, the split games are inherently different animals than PLO and Stud regular. But once you get shorthanded split games play a bit closer to the regulars. And mixed game players aren't going to suffer nearly as much for the change in format, and would most likely be agreeable if it meant a shot at TV.
This is a horrible idea. I love stud hi/lo and I find omaha 8OB interesting. Watching stud would be extremely dull, omaha would be fine. I don't see how the split versions are somehow less interesting to watch.But the main reason this is a terrible idea is how it affects players. I could see myself playing in a stud hi/lo tournament, but I would never play a stud tournament. I've logged a lot of hours playing stud hi/lo. Other than some Horse games, I've never really studied stud much. Why would a split player be interested in playing in a tournament where they're going to lose an edge when they hit the final table? A lot of players couldn't give a crap about tv. They want the bracelet and the money.It's a change that's not going to make the final table any more interesting IMO, and in the case of stud, actually makes it less interesting.I will agree that ESPN should be able to be more reactive to the big stories at the WSOP. Eli's win should have been a full broadcast. I would have loved to watch it. Instead they'll show a final table in some nl tournament, where only 1-2 players knows how to play.
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Let's see. There are events which are of interest to poker addicts that would likely not draw enough of an audience to warrant full TV coverage. Covering such events might be interesting to a relatively small group of people but a small group is hard to monetize through traditional - advertising - mean. Perhaps we could use an alternate form of distributing such coverage - say the Internet. It's still hard to monetize but maybe people will pay to watch? Shame no one has thought of that before.

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NL is shown way to much on tv in my opinion, they need to start having 7 card stud more that is 10 times better then hold 'em
anyone seen a period anywhere?
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Skarooo ESPN, Bluff Magazine and all the others that are influencing the games...they don't put a penny in the prize pool and seem to think they can control the games...Skarooo 'em.Bluff just decides they can put up a freakin' tent around a final table where Phil is making history so only they have access to the game and they can sell it?Skaroo that.

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the players are playing to win a bracelet and money, not for the purpose of being on tv (though they might also enjoy that benefit)the reality is that it is a travesty to change a tournament at the final table just to cater to a potential tv audience and it should never be doneperhaps eventually people who care about poker will stop watching the small hold-em tournaments and demand the others and there will be more different events shown, but to change a tournament at the last part is ridiculous for the participants
If you listen to the interviews of a lot of players you'd notice that they do very much so care about being on a TV table. Lots of players choose which NLTH crap shoots they are going to play based on whether or not that tourney will be televised. I think the lack of television coverage is a huge reason why the WSOP Circuit events didn't get nearly the turn outs this year that they did last year.And changing any game to a different one for the sake of the television audience is total BS. Even if they announce it ahead of time, it is really lame. The WSOP should be about poker tournaments and not television. We already have a tournament series that is a television show first and a poker tourney second (the WPT).
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lol thats not what u said.
please read my statement again and try to seriously argue that is not what I said; I wrote "perhaps eventually people who care about poker will stop watching the small hold-em tournaments and demand the others and there will be more different events shown, but to change a tournament at the last part is ridiculous for the participants"nowhere in that statement did I say that they change the event without telling people, I said they change it at the last part; interestingly enough, that is exactly what they dobut I guess, since you included an "lol" so arrogantly in your response, I must be mistaken
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no sense in changing the game when it gets to the final table. we can just hope that ESPN will hear us and that the people interested in seeing the other events will speak up and let the networks know. anyone who saw the KCL final table from a couple years ago which was produced but never aired knows how good some of these less popluar events' final tables can be. just get the word to ESPN that it's really what people want, enough of us do that, maybe we'll see a triple draw final table or someting like that.

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I think that the main point about poker on tv is the ratings ESPN (or whoever) would get. Especially what is good to tv to your non-poker enthusiast. I and I assume many people here not only would like to see the other events but also seeing every hand of a final table would be interesting. You have to admit though that a hand where someone raises preflop and everyone folds isn't interesting to regular tv audiences. I really think that the most likely ways to broadcast most final tables will be either pay-per-view or streaming over the internet. ESPN is going to show what is interesting and understandable, and I can't fault them for that. I personally think the WSOP of poker will find a way to deliver their product to the most people possible, and they will try to deliver their as much of it as possible as well. Just remember this is a business and if there is a demand for something I think they will try to deliver their product to it.

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OK, let me clarify : Once the final table gets shorthanded (read:6 players or less), eliminate the hi/lo aspect and start your filming from there. I'm just trying to get these on the air trying to appease the thick-headed powers that be that are in charge of bringing these to television.And I am *certainly* not implying that these changes be made while the tournament is in play. I'm talking about next year, where we can say once a table gets 5 handed or so to eliminate the hi/lo aspect. This would also speed up the play slightly, which could be a good thing or a bad thing I grant you.Since we may be talking about a "niche" market here, maybe we need to make a public plea to Pokerstars and Full Tilt. ESPN can have all the exclusive coverage they want on the events THEY CHOOSE TO TELEVISE. Have the poker sites jump in and do their own taping of the ignored events, bundle them into DVDs for $19.95, and sell them/FPP them on their own sites. Who loses in this argument? Let's not reward ESPN for covering 1% of the greatest month and a half in poker. Let's open this sucker up and see how much money Harrahs can accumulate by selling 100% of their poker tournament coverage.Wow, this really could work. Would you not spend twenty bucks for a DVD of Mixed games from the world series? How about a LHE DVD? PLH? Omaha? Razz? Who could you get to commentate? The possibilities are endless.

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Skarooo ESPN, Bluff Magazine and all the others that are influencing the games...they don't put a penny in the prize pool and seem to think they can control the games...Skarooo 'em.Bluff just decides they can put up a freakin' tent around a final table where Phil is making history so only they have access to the game and they can sell it?Skaroo that.
I agree 100%. Imagine the Indy 500 closed off the to general public. Wimbelton. US Open. World Series of Baseball. It's a complete injustice to the american public.On the other hand, they could have tented off the NBA Finals and it wouldn't have made a lick of difference... So I guess the argument doesn't work across the board.
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I will agree that ESPN should be able to be more reactive to the big stories at the WSOP. Eli's win should have been a full broadcast. I would have loved to watch it. Instead they'll show a final table in some nl tournament, where only 1-2 players knows how to play.
Maybe we could reach a comprimise? How about any time ESPN corners themselves into showing a NLHE final table of 9 luckboxes in on a satellite, let's make it mandatory that the game is switched immediately *to* HORSE, just to be able to film the ensuing chaos. If I'm forced to watch 9 donks who aren't even household names in their own household, I wanna see them sweat and have to play outside of the box. Hell, let's up the ante and make it "DIPCAB" : Duece to Seven Lowball/Indian Poker/Pineapple/Chinese Poker/Acey Ducey/Badugi. Pure carnage. You could have Lon McEachern, during the telecast, seperated in a Picture-in-Picture box on the bottom right corner of the screen shotgunning Red Bulls and trying to explain the rules of all the games involved in DIPCAB before the hour telecast is over.Note this is the only scenario where I advocate changing a format after a tournament is already registered and started.
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They knew the final table was going to be nl he ahead of time sooooooo......... it was not changed.UNO>POKER>CHECKERS<DOMINOS<PIZZA
NL is shown way to much on tv in my opinion, they need to start having 7 card stud more that is 10 times better then hold 'em
Holdem is Fast, and easy to understand, other forms are not.end thread/
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I like the idea of them airing some of this stuff on the net (for a reasonable price) or releasing a DVD. I think both are viable although I'm not sure if they are particularly profitable.

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I try not to flame much anymore but,Cappy you are possibly the biggest idiot in the history of this forum or any poker forum. Dumber than JFarrel, dumber than akaConditioner.If you sign up for a Stud Hi/Lo tournament, you expect to play Stud Hi/Lo the entire time. Just because there is a good lineup at the final table doesn't mean we should change the game.And once you get shorthanded, the high versions of games are not very similar to the split versions.

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I try not to flame much anymore but,Cappy you are possibly the biggest idiot in the history of this forum or any poker forum. Dumber than JFarrel, dumber than akaConditioner.If you sign up for a Stud Hi/Lo tournament, you expect to play Stud Hi/Lo the entire time. Just because there is a good lineup at the final table doesn't mean we should change the game.And once you get shorthanded, the high versions of games are not very similar to the split versions.
I'd agree completely with your assessment that I'm "the biggest idiot in the history of poker" *if* my suggestion was to change *anything* in any tournament while the tournament is in progress. This is simply not the case.I'm talking about figuring out some way to get these tables to the general public. The only real way ESPN could do it in their *current* setup is to make that kind of a format change, which, as the general consensus concludes, is a horrendous idea. I wanted to know if it was possible, you guys have let me know it isn't, and you're the only one to yell at me. I consider that a rather painless way to gain some knowledge. Now if ESPN or some other party was able to bundle some of these tables in DVD format someone could get some money out of it and there would be some of these classic matchups saved for posterity. After a couple years on the DVD shelf, heck ESPN could even throw some of them on ESPN classic.
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  • 6 months later...

bumping this out of fairness to bigstack1980..This is doubly amusing because I now play HORSE almost exclusively... my how 6 months can change a person..Everyone should seriously search through their original posts on the forum.. some can make you positively cringe.. :lol:edit: upon re-reading, this thread is hilarious, which almost makes up for the fact I was a complete mixed-games idiot back then.DIPCAB needs to find it's way onto TV.

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was this your first post ??if so wow you reached 5k really fast lol nice bump :club: jk :D
Yep.. I probably hold the record for quickest from 0-5k (6 months). I shudder to imagine how many I'd have if I still participated in tourney strat. "fold pre-flop" is the new "+1", after all.
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