stevielarson 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 9 handed, top 7 pay. I had been playing pretty tight and have a pretty passive image as I was handcuffed when playing SH with agressive players at my table and no cards.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flopButton (t2491)SB (t5685)Hero (t5072)UTG (t21296)UTG+1 (t7066)MP1 (t5270)MP2 (t950)MP3 (t15870)CO (t3800)Preflop: Hero is BB with T, K. UTG calls t800, 7 folds, Hero checks.Flop: (t2000) 8, 7, T(2 players)Hero ????The villian had gotten his stack by being very aggressive with reraises against a LAG when there were 12 left. I had only played about 15-20 hands with him before this hand though. Link to post Share on other sites
AKProdigy 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Was he usually limping PF? Sometimes I might try to trap here against an overly aggressive player, but considering the coordinated flop, I probably lead out for about 1200. If you don't think he'd limp with a high pocker pair, I push the turn on any non-dangerous card if he calls the flop. If he pushes back, I probably go broke (again assuming he's been limping into pots frequently and its unlikely he has a high PP here). Although you are on the bubble, the structure of the 45 turbos are so top heavy that if you can get a large stack heading ITM, its really advantageous as opposed to crawling past the bubble getting knocked out 4th to 7th. Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Why not just push here on the flop? Things are getting pretty desperate for Hero and he's flopped TPGK against a limper. The 2000 chips sitting in the pot will increase his stack by 40% and put him in a slightly better position relative to some of the other stacks in that range. I don't like the lead for 1200 because that's a decent chunk of Hero's stack and he'll find himself in hot water if villain calls and a non-K overcard comes on the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
StupidKid 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 push here on the flopIt's a turbo, you're short, you flopped TP2K. Shovel. Link to post Share on other sites
rog 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 It's a turbo, you're short, you flopped TP2K. Shovel.I'm not saying shove is bad, but you're not that short. Because of the two huge stacks, your 5k is pretty much middle of the pack, and you're more or less on the bubble right now. Link to post Share on other sites
StupidKid 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I'm not saying shove is bad, but you're not that short. Because of the two huge stacks, your 5k is pretty much middle of the pack, and you're more or less on the bubble right now.Yeh I realised that when I wrote it, any bet really commits us though and I don't think we can check/fold. WWYD? Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I'm not saying shove is bad, but you're not that short. Because of the two huge stacks, your 5k is pretty much middle of the pack, and you're more or less on the bubble right now.You have a point. MP2 is about to get blinded out in a few hands, and Button doesn't have much time left. Hero might be able to fold his way into the money after this hand. If that's the case, might it not be best just to check-fold here rather than leading out and risking damage to his stack? The problem is I think there is a darn good chance Hero's hand is good here and taking the pot without a fight would put him in an even better position to fold his way into the money. Link to post Share on other sites
Yahkin 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Absent a read, I'd make it 1200-1500 and see what he does. If he re-raises it, I'm probably folding....just because I get to see 7 more hands for free. Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I'm really not a fan of that line. Leading for 1200 and then folding to a reraise would put Hero down to about 3800 chips, which would put him tied for the final ITM spot with CO and make things that much more desperate. And if villain calls the bet, Hero could find himself in a really tough spot on the turn (unless a T or K falls). There are straight and diamond draws on the board, and any non-K overcard could connect with villain and put Hero behind. I think you either have to shift into fold-into-the-money mentality or go for it and open-push here. Link to post Share on other sites
Yahkin 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I'm really not a fan of that line. Leading for 1200 and then folding to a reraise would put Hero down to about 3800 chips, which would put him tied for the final ITM spot with CO and make things that much more desperate. And if villain calls the bet, Hero could find himself in a really tough spot on the turn (unless a T or K falls). There are straight and diamond draws on the board, and any non-K overcard could connect with villain and put Hero behind. I think you either have to shift into fold-into-the-money mentality or go for it and open-push here.Yes, it leaves us short...but MP2, CO, and Button all have to pay 1200 in blinds before it gets to us again. I'm letting the hand go if he flat calls my flop bet. We can still fold to the money. Link to post Share on other sites
stevielarson 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 This was the first time I had seen him limp at all. Usually he was coming in for a raise and had reraised about 3 hands in a row so I had him labelled as aggressive. If I bet out and got reraised it wouldnt neccesarily mean he had a hand. I was torn between check/folding to get in the money and playing it aggressively to chip up because taking down a decent sized pot here puts me safely in the top 3 where the majority of the money is with this payout structure. Also dont forget that there is an ante of 50 at this level so stacks are even shorter. Also I remember the blinds were just about to increase to 600/1200/75 next hand because I was happy to save the 400 chips when the previous hand was folded around.Does this change anyone's thinking?The hand gets a bit more interesting. Im just interested if this added information changes things and then I will post the next part. Link to post Share on other sites
Yahkin 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 This was the first time I had seen him limp at all. Usually he was coming in for a raise and had reraised about 3 hands in a row so I had him labelled as aggressive. If I bet out and got reraised it wouldnt neccesarily mean he had a hand. I was torn between check/folding to get in the money and playing it aggressively to chip up because taking down a decent sized pot here puts me safely in the top 3 where the majority of the money is with this payout structure. Also dont forget that there is an ante of 50 at this level so stacks are even shorter. Also I remember the blinds were just about to increase to 600/1200/75 next hand because I was happy to save the 400 chips when the previous hand was folded around.Does this change anyone's thinking?The hand gets a bit more interesting. Im just interested if this added information changes things and then I will post the next part.If this is the first time he has limped while otherwise being very aggressive...I'm very scared. With the blinds going up next hand, I'm comfortable c/f'ing here. I have a hunch that if he really has pocket rockets or the like, he may check behind, or put in a weak value bet. Let's try for a cheap turn card.Then, turn the K, go all in and lose to a set of K's. Link to post Share on other sites
rog 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I'm checking and either folding or shoving a bet back to me depending on how much it is and how it jives with my read. I likely call a shove as I think it represents a draw more often than not, but I'll fold to a "value" bet. I think we are likely best, but given that this is the bubble, I'm willing to make a weak play, and try to chip up next orbit. Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 If this is the first time he has limped while otherwise being very aggressive...I'm very scared.Ditto. A limp after a bunch of raises screams big hand. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he turned over AA. Given that information, I'm shifting my preference from pushing to check-folding.rog, you may be right under most circumstances about the push-reraise representing a draw but given his limp within the context of his history, he might very well push-reraise with his AA expecting Hero to suspect a draw. That limp is a giant red flag. Link to post Share on other sites
rog 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 rog, you may be right under most circumstances about the push-reraise representing a draw but given his limp within the context of his history, he might very well push-reraise with his AA expecting Hero to suspect a draw. That limp is a giant red flag.Fair enough. Given stack sizes I can see a c/f then. Link to post Share on other sites
stevielarson 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 If this is the first time he has limped while otherwise being very aggressive...I'm very scared. With the blinds going up next hand, I'm comfortable c/f'ing here. I have a hunch that if he really has pocket rockets or the like, he may check behind, or put in a weak value bet. Let's try for a cheap turn card.Then, turn the K, go all in and lose to a set of K's. I had only played about 2-3 rounds with him. Do you think this is long enough to get a good read on his limp? For the first round of those hands he was shortstacked severly so that would change things. Link to post Share on other sites
StupidKid 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I had only played about 2-3 rounds with him. Do you think this is long enough to get a good read on his limp? For the first round of those hands he was shortstacked severly so that would change things.I concur. 15-20 hands is not a big enough sample size to really know if this is truly a monster or not. Link to post Share on other sites
NEtwowilldo 0 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I was torn between check/folding to get in the money and playing it aggressively to chip up because taking down a decent sized pot here puts me safely in the top 3 where the majority of the money is with this payout structure.Opt for the latter, play for the win. Link to post Share on other sites
stevielarson 0 Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 So the next part of this hand was that I made teh decision that I wanted to play this to win and I was pretty sure I was ahead. I bet out 1600 which in hindsight was a little big. He flat called. The turn came the 9h. Now what is your play? Link to post Share on other sites
Atg Dax 0 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 His stack was so large compared to the rest, I think It depende on your style, If you want to wait till you are ITM. play accordingly (on the flop)If you want to hit a homer, I would not fold the hand no matter what, probably check raise all in on the flop, and If he checks after you, all in on the turn.A Dax Link to post Share on other sites
rogerwilco 0 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Does noone just push preflop here? I think that would be my first choice of play in this situation absent any reads. Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 I bet out 1600 which in hindsight was a little big. He flat called. The turn came the 9h. Now what is your play?See, I'm not a complete idiot. I seem to recall saying this is precisely one of the reasons for not leading with such a bet... Link to post Share on other sites
Yahkin 0 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 So the next part of this hand was that I made teh decision that I wanted to play this to win and I was pretty sure I was ahead. I bet out 1600 which in hindsight was a little big. He flat called. The turn came the 9h. Now what is your play?I doubt he was playing the gutshot here, so the 9 doesn't scare me too much...and it actually gives us some outs if he does have the rockets. I probably shovel here and catch a J on the river. Link to post Share on other sites
Flushgarden 0 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 I'd check raise all in on the flop....but I bubble a lot. lolThe limp doesn't really scare me if he's been raising every hand. Most of the value of being LAG is getting paid off when you actually have a big hand...so why change it up? If you have AA and you've been agressive why not let AQ or 99 think you're probably coming in weak? Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 I doubt he was playing the gutshot here, so the 9 doesn't scare me too much...and it actually gives us some outs if he does have the rockets. I probably shovel here and catch a J on the river.This is a really, really tough spot now. His flat call on the flop could indicate several things: 1) he was chasing a draw; 2) perhaps he limped with 77 or 88 and is trapping with his set; or 3) he has a weak hand and is calling Hero down to see if he'll fire again on the turn.If he were playing AA, the flop would have been the time to raise so I think we can reasonably take that option off the board. I wouldn't completely rule out the GSD, since some players do overvalue them and he does have a lot of chips to play with. At this point I might just check-fold to a large bet and look to sneak into the money while keeping my eyes open for good PF pushing opps. Link to post Share on other sites
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