Turned A Straight

[wsox8 10]

Reads: Villian appears to be LAG.. Recently showed down J3 on a J-high board..Also, limped hands like 9-8 os in MP. If there's a hand, he's most likely in it.I feel like if I capped the turn I should have capped the river.Absolute PokerLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $1/$25 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $60CO: $61.50Button: $36.75SB: $59.25GarbageBag: $170.73Pre-flop: (5 players) GarbageBag is BB with Q K UTG calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, GarbageBag checks.Flop: 8 J T (3.5SB, 3 players)GarbageBag bets, UTG folds, Button calls.Turn: 9 (2.75BB, 2 players)GarbageBag bets, Button raises, GarbageBag 3-bets, Button caps, GarbageBag calls.River: 3 (10.75BB, 2 players)GarbageBag checks, Button bets, GarbageBag calls.Results:Final pot: 12.75BB

[mikeysong 0]

you need a good read to cap the river.

[Zach6668 513]

Nh.

[litlebullet 0]

Nh.

or nice cooler. anyway, does anyone like to raise preflop here?

[Zach6668 513]

or nice cooler. anyway, does anyone like to raise preflop here?

Na, KQs, yes, KQo, no.

[CoranMoran 0]

I raise KQ from the big blind against limpers 100% of the time.I usually raise KJ too.Because I do not expect any hand that dominates mine to have limped.--CM

[Zach6668 513]

Eh, it's not as thin as I suspected it would be.CM, let me know what you think of these ranges...

102,005,702  games   106.729 secs   955,744  games/secBoard: Dead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	31.162%	  29.81% 	01.35% 		  30405955 	  1381735.50   { TT-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, ATo-A5o, KJo-K9o, Q9o+, JTo, T9o }Hand 1: 	30.622%	  29.25% 	01.37% 		  29838669 	  1397850.50   { TT-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, ATo-A5o, KJo-K9o, Q9o+, JTo, T9o }Hand 2: 	38.216%	  37.58% 	00.63% 		  38336413 	   647013.33   { KQo }

How much does being OOP to 2 players negate?

[KDawgCometh 2]

How much does being OOP to 2 players negate?

a decent amount IMO. I'm not a fan at all of bloating the pot PF OOP as it usually just leads us down a road of bad decision after bad decision post flop. if we were in position, i'm raising 24/7

[Moneyball16 0]

I feel like if I capped the turn I should have capped the river.

I'm surprised no ones brought any attention to this statement. Where did you get this idea?

[Zach6668 513]

I'd probably bet/call this river.There's the possibility of spades, but there's also the chance he's got a random queen.

[CoranMoran 0]

Board: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 31.162% 29.81% 01.35% 30405955 1381735.50 { TT-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, ATo-A5o, KJo-K9o, Q9o+, JTo, T9o }Hand 1: 30.622% 29.25% 01.37% 29838669 1397850.50 { TT-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K9s, Q9s+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, ATo-A5o, KJo-K9o, Q9o+, JTo, T9o }Hand 2: 38.216% 37.58% 00.63% 38336413 647013.33 { KQo }[/code]How much does being OOP to 2 players negate?

These %'s tell us what we can expect to win if everyone goes to showdown 100% of the time.But this surely would not be the case.They do not factor in the fold equity that our preflop raise gives us.I expect to get better hands (small pocket pairs and aces) to fold a significant amount of the time.So even if I do not improve, I expect to win this pot much more often than I need to make the preflop raise profitable.And I believe that this adequately compensates for our bad position.A big key to playing it out of position is just to make sure you don't blindlessly fire continuation bets when the board is bad. Because that will get expensive.So as long as you're smart and careful postflop, I think raising preflop is always good.

I'm not a fan at all of bloating the pot PF OOP as it usually just leads us down a road of bad decision after bad decision post flop.

I do not like bloating the pot when I have a pair of dueces.Because then opponents are getting better odds to peel the next card and keep calling down.So even if I am ahead, against two opponents, I likely have to dodge any of 12 random overcards.But I have little fear of bloating a pot when I hold KQ.Because we are only pushing hard postflop when we hit.And once we pair up, there are only 3 overcards (the Aces) that we are afraid of.That is 1/4 of danger compared to the other example.And even if the flop is coordinated, while pocket dueces becomes worthless, our KQ still plays well.--cm

[KDawgCometh 2]

I do not like bloating the pot when I have a pair of dueces.Because then opponents are getting better odds to peel the next card and keep calling down.So even if I am ahead, against two opponents, I likely have to dodge any of 12 random overcards.But I have little fear of bloating a pot when I hold KQ.Because we are only pushing hard postflop when we hit.And once we pair up, there are only 3 overcards (the Aces) that we are afraid of.That is 1/4 of danger compared to the other example.And even if the flop is coordinated, while pocket dueces becomes worthless, our KQ still plays well.--cm

bloating teh pot is bloating teh pot, it doesn't matter if it's dueces or KQo. Being OOP and having two players behind us throughout the hand makes this very hard to play post flop unless we hit big(oesd or pairing up), and that won't happen enough to justify raising PF IMO. What happens when we miss? The pot will then be big enough if 3 bets go in on the flop for us to see the river, this is what I was saying when it comes to the compound decisions involved in the hand. Not raising PF will allow our post flop decisions to be much easier which IMO will help us in the long run

[CoranMoran 0]

bloating teh pot is bloating teh pot, it doesn't matter if it's dueces or KQo.

I feel that this oversimplified logic can't be sound and passes up on some profitable opportunities for good players.How I play...Some possible scenarios:--> I hit the flop.When we hit the flop with KQ, we usually hit it strong.This makes it pretty easy to play.I then push hard postflop when I am almost surely ahead.In this case, I am glad I raised preflop for value.--> An Ace hits the flop.I bet the flop to represent the Ace.If opponents do not have one themselves, they will likely be forced to lay down their hand.Many underpairs will fold better hands to me here.In this case, I am glad I raised preflop for fold equity.If an opponent calls, my read is:+ He has the Ace+ He is making a loose call with a lesser pair and plans on calling all the way down.= Conclusion: I am almost always behind and my fold equity is low. I give up on the hand unless I improve.--> The flop comes XXYI make a continuation bet.Random limpers often have coordinated hands (JT, A3s, etc).A paired flop will usually be the worst flop for these hands.Our fold equity is high.In this case, I am glad I raised for this fold equity.If an opponent calls, my read is:- He has a small pair and plans on calling me down after this uncoordinated flop.- He has overs and is willing to peel one more card.= Conclusion: If one opponent calls, I fire once more on the turn. If two opponents call, I am done with the hand unless I improve.--> A coordinated flop falls (765 with flush draw)I check-fold.In this case, I lost the one extra bet I invested preflop.--cm

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I feel that this oversimplified logic can't be sound and passes up on some profitable opportunities for good players.

Reading over your list, do you think that your preflop raise buys you any more fold equity than you would have had had you just checked?Also, I would argue that few players would fold a pair (other than a pocket pair) on an A-high flop after you raise preflop in a 3-handed pot getting 7-1 immediate odds. A decent player might fold middle or bottom pair if you had not raised preflop and then bet on an A-high flop though.That said, the fact that you can often win with a semibluff against the limpers when you miss the flop does add to the value of your hand, and may make it worthwile to raise for value. Let's say, if you raise, you have a 40-50% chance to win the pot. Then the immediate value of the preflop raise is 0.2-0.5 small bets (I suspect your chances are closer to 40% (0.2 small bets) than they are to 50% (0.5)). The other side of the coin is that raising preflop can cost you value by: (1)opening yourself up to a limp-reraise, (2)possibly increasing the rake, (3)reducing your postflop edge by bloating the pot(opponent-dependent), and (4)giving your opponents information about your hand.(1) is admittedly a minor point, but we are talking about a close decision here. (2) is a point that is often overlooked, but I think it can be significant in low-stakes games. If your raise will ultimately increase the rake by 0.5 small bets 1/2 of the time, and if you win 2/5(40%) of the time, then the raise costs you 0.2 small bets on average this way. If your raise will only increase the rake 1/4 of the time, it still costs you 0.1 small bets on average.(3) depends on the limpers, but usually it is true that people who often limp preflop are likely to play too loosely preflop, and thus your edge decreases in a larger pot (by making your check-folds and bet-folds either incorrect or less correct, and your opponents' loose calls with gutshots/1-pair either correct or less incorrect).(4) may not hurt you too much with this particular hand. An opponent who flops top pair with a worse K or Q will probably not raise you on the flop, though.I can't be sure, but I suspect that these factors added together make just checking preflop the better play. I could be wrong though.(Also, I honestly don't know whether there are any metagame advantages created in future hands when you raise with marginal hands in these spots. In principle, it should make players less inclined to limp in with weaker hands when you are yet to act).

[CoranMoran 0]

I always enjoy reading your analysis,

Reading over your list, do you think that your preflop raise buys you any more fold equity than you would have had had you just checked?

YesBecause I feel that a raise from the small blind represents a good deal of stength.--cm

[MrNiceGuy 0]

YesBecause I feel that a raise from the small blind represents a good deal of stength.--cm

Certainly this is true, and I do think raising buys you some fold equity against small pocket pairs when an A flops, but I think that's probably about it (on the flop anyway). I think in most other situations when you miss the flop, you have about the same amount of fold equity on the flop whether you raise preflop or not.The raise definitely represents extra strength, but it also makes the pot large enough that anyone with middle or bottom pair or a gutshot should be calling you on most flops even if they put you on a top pair or overpair hand. In these cases you will need to fire again on the turn, which is a questionable play against calling stations (sidenote: if your image is good and the limpers play too many hands and then seem to fold too much postflop, then I like raising preflop and firing away postflop).

[DinkDonk 1]

I agree with Coran on the raise here. I think that KQo actually fares very well against the range of the 2 limpers and warrants a raise on this element alone. Limping in shorthanded games is rarely anything that beats us, and when it is, it's most often a bad ace. IMO raising out of the blind here increases our fold equity against these type hands, and discourages them from calling us down with an unimproved A high. Any increased fold equity we gain against small pairs is another small bonus which would support our raise here. All in all I think it's a raise. As for the river, I agree with Zach. Bet-call seems like the best option here. Villain can very often have something like a bare Q, AsJx, AsQx, or AsAx. Any time he raises us with one of these, we gain a bet. We only lose one extra bet when he has a flush, and I think the first group far outweighs a flush in his range. Check call is second best. I don't think capping the river can ever be correct here.

[CoranMoran 0]

Thanks for the explanation, MNG.I appreciate hearing ideas contradictory to my own.Questions for you:If you could see your two opponents' hands...Would you raise preflop here if they heldJTs & 98s44 & 22A4 & A2K4s & K2s--cm

[antistuff 0]

i turned a straight once but his girlfriend got really mad and left threatening messages on my answering machine.sorry.--------------the preflop thing here got my attention.wouldnt it depend on 1) the range of the two limpers. a raise is good if you have positive equity against their range. 2) if they tend to fold easily post flop then i like a raise better. i think this is close and not a situation where you can say one play is better than the other without taking the opponents into regard. another thought i had is if they are calling stations you actually do better keeping the pot small because you make their bad calls postflop worse. since a raise preflop is pretty close even when its good you would make more from these bad calls than you would from the raise.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

If you could see your two opponents' hands...Would you raise preflop here if they heldJTs & 98s44 & 22A4 & A2K4s & K2s

Assuming that I would forget what they had after I acted (If I would know their hands throughout the hand, then I'd raise in every case, knowing that I'd never make a bad fold or give a dangerous free card postflop), then I think I'd check in the first case and raise in the others. In the first case, I'd just as soon not give them the right odds to draw at gutshots on the flop, plus I'll be very vulnerable to semibluffs and I'll often make a bad fold postflop (so my 43% preflop chances would actually be reduced, as I'll often make a bad fold and my opponents almost never will). In the latter 3 cases, my opponents hands are so hard to play that it should make my hand relatively easy to play, even out of position. (Of course, in the second hand, I'll take a beating if I flop top pair against a set, but I'm going to be in trouble in that case whether I raise preflop or not, and if I raise preflop and still take a lot of heat, the fact that I raised preflop may make it easier to make a good laydown with top pair).