River Decision

[mkeller3086 0]

Home game.50/1 NL 4 handedStacksSB 70UTG 60Hero 150Some background...I have played with these guys for about 3 or 4 years now so we all know each others games pretty well. When utg raises here (he is actually just one off the button, his range is very wide, probably all no gap suited connectors and most one or two gap suited connectors. Also any suited ace, most off suited aces, maybe A5+, any two broadway, pairs 55+, and any obvious hands not mentioned, no matter what the range is its very large)In situations when I have position I like to reraise with a wide range as well and take control of this hand. What I am unhappy about is the way I played the flop and the turn. After taking control preflop, I fail to bet both streets, the reason being my concern about the sb's holdings. The cold call here would seem like 1010+, AQs, and AK. Not knowing how the sb would react I decide to take the free card see what he does on the turn/try to suck out, since I don't feel I can beat a single hand in his range. Looking back on it betting the flop or turn would have probably folded a lot of the hands that had me beat and made the river a lot easier.Hero dealt 6d7d on the buttonUTG raises to 3, Hero raises to 9, sb calls, bb folds, utg callsFlop ($28, 3 players)As5c6hsb checks, utg checks, hero checksTurn ($28, 3 players)Kcsb checks, utg checks, hero checksAt this time I would expect the sb to bet AQ and check with the rest, so imo he either has a big hand like top two or a set of aces or kings or a hand like tens, jacks, or queens. A bet on the turn would have let me know for sure. River5dsb checks, utg bets 15, hero callsFor a few reasons this looked like an obvious bluff so I decided to call, the check by the sb again indicates to me that he does not have one of the big hands but probably a hand like the tens, jacks or queensSo my question is this...Do we ever consider raising the river if we are pretty certain the bettor is bluffing? The sb probably has us beat and may call as well (since I played the hand as if the A or K didn't help my hand) but will probably fold to a raise since its pretty clear he doesn't have a very big hand.Please try to ignore how I butchered this on the flop and turn and focus on the river decision.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Please try to ignore how I butchered this on the flop and turn and focus on the river decision.

Well, what're the odds that the bettor woke up with some kind of weirdly big hand? It'll be really hard for the SB to overcall here, and he's got to have the same concerns about your range that you have about his. Once you call the river, he'll have to make a pretty big call with KQ or something or JJ to scoop this pot, and that's not going to happen often enough to offset the risk of reopening the betting and getting drilled by 45 or something.I think you have to bet the flop, but once you check, I check the turn, too because now we'd like to snap off a bluff from the initial preflop opener. Wang

[mkeller3086 0]

Well, what're the odds that the bettor woke up with some kind of weirdly big hand? It'll be really hard for the SB to overcall here, and he's got to have the same concerns about your range that you have about his. Once you call the river, he'll have to make a pretty big call with KQ or something or JJ to scoop this pot, and that's not going to happen often enough to offset the risk of reopening the betting and getting drilled by 45 or something.I think you have to bet the flop, but once you check, I check the turn, too because now we'd like to snap off a bluff from the initial preflop opener. Wang

Well I hate to speak in absolutes because nobody is ever 100% certain about any decision but this was a bluff about as close to 100% as it could have been.The river bettor had just dropped a quick hundred and was pretty flustered. When it was his turn to bet on the river he quickly threw in three five dollar chips off the top of his stack and threw them in very sloppily. When I reached for chips to call and motioned towards the pot (but had not called yet) he picked up his cards ready to muck. He didn't realize he did this when I told him later, it was probably a product of his frustration at the time.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Well I hate to speak in absolutes because nobody is ever 100% certain about any decision but this was a bluff about as close to 100% as it could have been.The river bettor had just dropped a quick hundred and was pretty flustered. When it was his turn to bet on the river he quickly threw in three five dollar chips off the top of his stack and threw them in very sloppily. When I reached for chips to call and motioned towards the pot (but had not called yet) he picked up his cards ready to muck. He didn't realize he did this when I told him later, it was probably a product of his frustration at the time.

Then the hand is more easily a raise. I don't know how likely the player behind us is to make a big overcall, or how suspicious he'll be of our suddenly inconsistent river raise, but I think our equity goes up significantly if we reopen the action and make it 40. Wang

[linkwood 0]

I think if you're going to play the river like the UTG player is bluffing you have to raise. Your hand so far looks like aces full, kings full or JJ or QQ. So if the UTG is bluffing its to get you to lay down the QQ or JJ. He could be "bluffing" with 77 - 1010, in which case he is accidentally value betting his hand if you just call. Its a risking, read dependent play, but I think you have to raise if you are not folding the hand.

[mkeller3086 0]

one thing I don't like is that most raises will come close to setting UTG all in. If for some reason he does have a hand theres no way we could fold to a reraise by him. He started the hand with 60 minus 9 preflop and 15 on the river.

[linkwood 0]

one thing I don't like is that most raises will come close to setting UTG all in. If for some reason he does have a hand theres no way we could fold to a reraise by him. He started the hand with 60 minus 9 preflop and 15 on the river.

That's true, and that would be another argument for just folding the hand. I think you messed up the hand by checking the flop/turn. Now you have to dump the hand unless you're willing to make the big play. in this hand folding > raising > calling.

[Worm109 0]

if you are very sure that the original bettor has nothing, go with your read and raise....even if its a tiny raise, the sb cant call with QQ or JJ...if the UTG player pushes to your raise, even if you are getting some extremely good odds, you can fold because hes not pushing there with a hand you beat...by just calling the 15, the sb can call as well, which means you are beat for sure....you would be calling 15 to win 43 dollars on the river....however, if you raise to say, 32, you are risking 32 to win 43, still not bad....your read on the UTG player makes us think we are ahead here about 90% of the time, especially with his tell when you reach for your chips...in order for your raise to be correct here, you have to be sure the bettor is bluffing slightly less than 50% of the time...you know the sb isnt slowplaying anything, as hes checked all 3 streets when there was no actionso make the small raise, watch the SB fold his QQ, and take the pot when the bettor instamucks

[mkeller3086 0]

I'm just going to give the results since nobody thinks this hand is as interesting as I did.After I called with the 67 the sb thought for a while, told me that I would have bet the turn or river if I had an A or K and called with QQ to take the pot.

[Webslinger516 0]

in this hand folding > raising > calling.

Agreed. There's pretty much nothing you can beat at the river. Your only chance to win the pot is to raise, b/c you're not going to win at the showdown. I mean what do you beat? 22, 33, 44, 5x? Those aren't likely to be UTG open raisers pre-flop. You could have taken this down on the flop and the turn I think. So like Linkwood said, as played, folding > raising > calling.

[JJACKSON123 0]

If you were "so sure" he was bluffing then all you had to do was beat him into the pot or at least call quickly that would discourage the player behind to fold... you said at the time you werent really concerned about the player behind so if you were so sure that the guy was bluffing i dont know why you hesitated so long... it obviously encouraged the call from the player with queens

[mkeller3086 0]

If you were "so sure" he was bluffing then all you had to do was beat him into the pot or at least call quickly that would discourage the player behind to fold... you said at the time you werent really concerned about the player behind so if you were so sure that the guy was bluffing i dont know why you hesitated so long... it obviously encouraged the call from the player with queens

I don't recall indicating that I hesitated for a long time.