The Old Man & The Me (fr) (5/10)

[CobaltBlue 662]

This is the first of a three part series that will all be posted in this thread. We'll discuss this hand first (which may admittedly be slightly light on discussion) and then continue on to the next.Bellagio 5/10 NLHE (9-handed)Cobalt $900Old Man (SB) $600Cobalt is MP3 w/ K J . I've been playing TAG. Old Man hasn't been overly remarkable yet. In an earlier hand, I bet the flop and he'd check/called before he check/folded the turn.Pre-flop:3 folds, Cobalt raises to $30, 2 folds, Old Man calls, 1 foldFlop ($70): T 9 2 (2 players)Old Man checks, Cobalt bets $40, Old Man callsTurn ($150): 3 (2 players)Old Man Checks, Cobalt bets $80, Old Man callsRiver ($310): 6 (2 players)Old Man checks, Cobalt checksFinal Pot: $310His call on the flop seems somewhat tentative...and also his call on the turn. As I'm thinking on the river, he apparently decides I'm preparing to bet and pre-emptively has grabbed a large stack to call. I do not believe this to be an act.

[Verdimme 0]

Check behind on river looks good.I'd bet a bit bigger on turn and flop though. At least 3/4 pot.

[No_Neck 0]

his 5's are good. You can lead a donkey to water but you can't make him fold a hand....

[Acid_Knight 2]

Welcome to the fun of live play. Almost always, the grab for chips is a ploy to get you NOT to bet. If you determined it to be genuiine, then I go ahead and check. You still beat every straight draw that he might have had, except the KQ staight draw of course. Oh yeah, and the 78. You don't beat much :)You gonna be playing tonight? I'll be down there around 4:30 or so.

[CobaltBlue 662]

You gonna be playing tonight? I'll be down there around 4:30 or so.

Headed down to the Rio for the 6-handed NL this afternoon. If I bust from that, maybe.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Welcome to the fun of live play. Almost always, the grab for chips is a ploy to get you NOT to bet. If you determined it to be genuiine, then I go ahead and check.

Aware of that and I'll usually bet if I think someone's putting on that act. The problem was that the guy didn't seem to have enough of a clue to try to throw some sort of reverse tell. It wasn't an immediate grabbing of his chips as he was checking or immediate grabbing after I'd checked. It was seriously a "I think you're moving your chips in and I'm going to beat you into the pot" thing.

[Naismith 0]

For me, the reaching quickly towards the chips as you move towards yours is the tell of please-don't-bet. Checking and then grabbing chips to make any call is usually genuine. I don't think I'm describing it well here, though, but I think at least Cobalt knows what I'm talking about.Not really much to discuss on this hand. If you were certain he was calling anything, it's only a bad check if he has QJ.

[CobaltBlue 662]

So I check and the old man proudly flips up over his hand while announcing "Two pair!" I think, "Wow...I guess I read him wrong...T9?" As I'm mucking my hand, I notice (along with the rest of the table) what he's flipped over...Ac6c. There's a confusing murmur of "You have a pair," and several people inquire if I mucked a better pair...though I inform them that I didn't. The only logical conclusion I can come to: I guess he misread the 2 on the flop as an ace?

[mtdesmoines 3]

So I check and the old man proudly flips up over his hand while announcing "Two pair!" I think, "Wow...I guess I read him wrong...T9?" As I'm mucking my hand, I notice (along with the rest of the table) what he's flipped over...Ac6c. There's a confusing murmur of "You have a pair," and several people inquire if I mucked a better pair...though I inform them that I didn't. The only logical conclusion I can come to: I guess he misread the 2 on the flop as an ace?

I guess it's easy to represent a strong hand when you don't know that you don't have a strong hand but you thinks you do ... what's sick is that if you had anything at all and had moved on him, he would have gladly given you a boatload of chips.

[Webslinger516 0]

So I check and the old man proudly flips up over his hand while announcing "Two pair!" I think, "Wow...I guess I read him wrong...T9?" As I'm mucking my hand, I notice (along with the rest of the table) what he's flipped over...Ac6c. There's a confusing murmur of "You have a pair," and several people inquire if I mucked a better pair...though I inform them that I didn't. The only logical conclusion I can come to: I guess he misread the 2 on the flop as an ace?

Is it possible that he's angle-shooting here? What would happen if you actually had a better pair? Would your hand be dead and he pulls the pot? Just curious.

[No_Neck 0]

Would your hand be dead and he pulls the pot? Just curious.

yup

[CobaltBlue 662]

I guess it's easy to represent a strong hand when you don't know that you don't have a strong hand but you thinks you do ... what's sick is that if you had anything at all and had moved on him, he would have gladly given you a boatload of chips.

Exactly.

Is it possible that he's angle-shooting here? What would happen if you actually had a better pair? Would your hand be dead and he pulls the pot? Just curious.

Nah. He wasn't angle-shooting. He was just a bad player and misread his hand. And there was a lot of discussion about that. It's my responsibility to protect my hand, so technically my hand would be dead. One player remarked that if he'd somehow made the same misread mistake that he would've done the "gentleman" thing and at least split the pot.

[LincolnK 1]

Is it possible that he's angle-shooting here? What would happen if you actually had a better pair? Would your hand be dead and he pulls the pot? Just curious.

by robert's rules, if we muck due to the guy misrepresenting his hand, its at the discretion of the floor to retrieve the cards and make them live.

[CobaltBlue 662]

On to the next hand in the series...Cobalt $1050BB $700Old Man $1200Cobalt is CO w/ A 6 . We're now aware that Old Man (UTG+1) is quite bad and loves open-limping. He loves to bet with marginal/bluff hands, but he also seems to have calling station tendencies. BB seems TAG and decent...we haven't tangled at all. He probably views me as a fellow TAG.Pre-flop:1 fold, Old Man calls, 3 folds, Cobalt calls, 2 folds, BB checksFlop ($30): Q 8 3 (3 players)BB bets $30, Old Man calls, Cobalt ?

[mtdesmoines 3]

On to the next hand in the series...Cobalt $1050BB $700Old Man $1200Cobalt is CO w/ A 6 . We're now aware that Old Man (UTG+1) is quite bad and loves open-limping. He loves to bet with marginal/bluff hands, but he also seems to have calling station tendencies. BB seems TAG and decent...we haven't tangled at all. He probably views me as a fellow TAG.Pre-flop:1 fold, Old Man calls, 3 folds, Cobalt calls, 2 folds, BB checksFlop ($30): Q 8 3 (3 players)BB bets $30, Old Man calls, Cobalt ?

We're shooting for the old man -- the TAG is going to catch on pretty quickly when we fill this pot unless we've just totally coolered him. I give the flop bet a little nudge to $90 or so.

[No_Neck 0]

We're shooting for the old man -- the TAG is going to catch on pretty quickly when we fill this pot unless we've just totally coolered him. I give the flop bet a little nudge to $90 or so.

I smooth call here, a nudge in my opinion would give you hand away 100%, you are in position use it... he is going to have to make a much bigger bet on the turn and then you get to see what Old man will do....

[Webslinger516 0]

We're shooting for the old man -- the TAG is going to catch on pretty quickly when we fill this pot unless we've just totally coolered him. I give the flop bet a little nudge to $90 or so.

I agree, a raise is needed here. If another diamond comes off on 4th street, it's going to kill our action. $90 sounds about right to me too. Old Man will call most likely, TAG may see another card come off if he's got a set, 2 pair or a high diamond.

[Lavitz 0]

I like making a very small reraise to like $75 to bloat the pot. We have position and for another 45 bucks the old man probably isn't folding. BB might not fold either but he's on big blind special so he most likely has something like Qx in which we don't really have much to fear even if he tags along.

[Money022 0]

I agree, a raise is needed here. If another diamond comes off on 4th street, it's going to kill our action. $90 sounds about right to me too. Old Man will call most likely, TAG may see another card come off if he's got a set, 2 pair or a high diamond.

I like this line too.

[dreamcrusher28 0]

On to the next hand in the series...Cobalt $1050BB $700Old Man $1200Cobalt is CO w/ A 6 . We're now aware that Old Man (UTG+1) is quite bad and loves open-limping. He loves to bet with marginal/bluff hands, but he also seems to have calling station tendencies. BB seems TAG and decent...we haven't tangled at all. He probably views me as a fellow TAG.Pre-flop:1 fold, Old Man calls, 3 folds, Cobalt calls, 2 folds, BB checksFlop ($30): Q 8 3 (3 players)BB bets $30, Old Man calls, Cobalt ?

Min-raises?? What's the min/max buy-in for this game?What do people typically buy in for?I'm asking because I may take a shot in this game on my last day in Vegas (Jun 27th) if I happen to run goot.

[Webslinger516 0]

The thing I don't like about min-raises is that it screams "I've got the nuts here." What other hand would feel comfortable about a min-raise? If we had a set, we'd want to raise more to protect against potential diamond chasers. In fact, if we had anything except the nut flush here, we'd raise more than minimum. That's why I think making it $90 disguising our hand and gets maximum value. I think a minimum raise would definitely set off alarms to anyone that might feel they'd be drawing dead against a flush.

[dreamcrusher28 0]

The thing I don't like about min-raises is that it screams "I've got the nuts here." What other hand would feel comfortable about a min-raise? If we had a set, we'd want to raise more to protect against potential diamond chasers. In fact, if we had anything except the nut flush here, we'd raise more than minimum. That's why I think making it $90 disguising our hand and gets maximum value. I think a minimum raise would definitely set off alarms to anyone that might feel they'd be drawing dead against a flush.

I was joking, which is why I put a there. But now that I think about it, its not soooo bad. The TAG calls, because his odds are good. The old man calls, because he's an old man. He'll probably chase with 10 , perhaps worse. Plus it can't hurt a superstar like Cobalt to have a decent TAG thinking he's a min-raising donk. :)I'm gonna continue boozing and not post anymore today, cuz I'm whacked!!!

[CobaltBlue 662]

In this second hand, I raised to $120. The BB thought for a long time before folding. The Old Man called. The J peeled on the turn and he checked. Do we like betting or checking?

[Webslinger516 0]

In this second hand, I raised to $120. The BB thought for a long time before folding. The Old Man called. The J peeled on the turn and he checked. Do we like betting or checking?

I can see an argument for both. He's not that strong, so I can't see him catching up to us in any way, so checking to let him hang himself on the river may not be a bad play especially with position. On the other hand, this old man misread the board the first time you tangled with him, so a value bet of 1/2 pot may also be in order.

[CobaltBlue 662]

So I bet $200 and he folds. The "pro" next to me criticized me greatly for my line because BB had thrown away two pair.Next hand (few orbits later)...Cobalt $1300Old Man $900Brit $1500Cobalt is MP w/ Q Q . Brit is pretty LAG.Pre-flop:Brit calls, 1 fold, Cobalt raises to $50, 2 folds, Old Man calls, 2 folds, Brit callsFlop ($165): Q J J (3 players)Brit checks, Cobalt checks, Old Man checksTurn ($165): 8 (3 players)Brit bets $120, Cobalt calls, Old Man callsRiver ($525): 3 (3 players)Brit checks, Cobalt bets $300We prefer betting/raising at any other points?