Is This A Weak Fold With Kk?

[Cadam11 0]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero ($57.05)CO ($32.90)Button ($32.95)SB ($61.15)BB ($19.50)UTG ($67.10)Preflop: Hero is MP with K, K. UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, SB calls $2.25, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.Flop: ($8) 9, 4, 4(3 players)SB bets $0.5, UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $4, SB calls $3.50, UTG raises to $14.5, Hero folds, SB folds.Final Pot: $30.50I wasnt worried about the initial bettor since he bets out every time for .50 no matter what.

[linkwood 0]

I don't think its a weak fold. It looks like the sb has a flush draw and the other villian has trips or a boat. With a board like that its hard to think of a hand that he could have that you beat. It looks like he flat calls the sb to see what you do, and you pretty much confirmed that you had an overpair. Once you represented the overpair then he wakes up with a big raise. It really looks like he has a boat and he's hoping you won't lay down your overpair. I think you gotta fold here.

[pezeveng 207]

anytime someone bets strong like that they don't want to see anymore cards. Iam thinking A9, he would have caught the Ace on the river anyways.

[Acid_Knight 2]

The call-reraise is one of the strongest looking post flop plays in holdem and it's rarely a bluff because it's so hard to set up. I like a fold here.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero ($57.05)CO ($32.90)Button ($32.95)SB ($61.15)BB ($19.50)UTG ($67.10)Preflop: Hero is MP with K, K. UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, SB calls $2.25, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.Flop: ($8) 9, 4, 4(3 players)SB bets $0.5, UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $4, SB calls $3.50, UTG raises to $14.5, Hero folds, SB folds.Final Pot: $30.50I wasnt worried about the initial bettor since he bets out every time for .50 no matter what.

I don't like your flop bet -- half the pot. I think you have to pot it on this flop and that will give you a better idea of where you're at. Right now, it looks like a weak c-bet or blocker bet. Thinking through this, there is no flush or straight, so the only hands ahead of you are any 4 including 44, EDIT --- AND I MEANT TO ADD 99 and AA, but would those hands have called your raise? EDIT: so any hand with a 4 UNlikelythe hand that goes 44 UNlikelyrockets / AA: he horribly misplayed them preflop themI don't know that I'm so quick to fold here, just because someone is spewing. Again, a stronger flop bet better defines your hand. And I don't think I can get away here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I don't like your flop bet -- half the pot. I think you have to pot it on this flop and that will give you a better idea of where you're at. Right now, it looks like a weak c-bet or blocker bet. Thinking through this, there is no flush or straight, so the only hands ahead of you are any 4 including 44, but would those hands have called your raise? or pocket nines. I don't know that I'm so quick to fold here, just because someone is spewing. Again, a stronger flop bet better defines your hand.

While you're right about the bet sizing, it's not the sizing, but the sequence that you should find troubling. How many players do you know that will call when action is to them the first time on a postflop street and then reraise when it gets back to them again and show up with some kind of bluff? Also consider that the villain is OOP and also didn't reraise a large amount trying to end the hand right there, so whatever he's got, he's not afraid to play it out of position to a player who raised preflop and raised again on the flop.

[Webslinger516 0]

This smells a LOT like quad 4's. I know it's an unlikely holding, but the way it played out, UTG is extremely strong. Because he just called the SB, he's obviously not afraid of the flush draw. That means he has a full house or better most of the time in this spot.However, something to think about here is that OP said that SB always bets out $.50 regardless. UTG might know this too, so it might not be as strong as call-reraises tend to be and should be only thought of as strong as a regular check-raise. Still, there's a good chance you're beat here. JJ and QQ would have probably reraised you preflop or at least opened the raising preflop. The best you can hope for here is A9 or 1010. Nothing else makes sense.Folding is the best play and is not weak at all. It's just logical.

[Lavitz 0]

Reads? if he flopped something monsterous like a boat why would he cold call it to flop min bet but then reraise our bet, giving us a chance to get away from our hand? Some players do it, and it's in his range to have a monster, but if he does, I really don't like how he played it.Is this guy tight? Is a 4 in his range? He could be playing a hand like A9 or a flush draw like this. If we have no reads I might be going to the felt with this. If board is rainbow it makes decision much harder.

[GabeTheKid 0]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero ($57.05)CO ($32.90)Button ($32.95)SB ($61.15)BB ($19.50)UTG ($67.10)Preflop: Hero is MP with K, K. UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, SB calls $2.25, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.Flop: ($8) 9, 4, 4(3 players)SB bets $0.5, UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $4, SB calls $3.50, UTG raises to $14.5, Hero folds, SB folds.Final Pot: $30.50I wasnt worried about the initial bettor since he bets out every time for .50 no matter what.

I never fold here. I think it's very weak to fold KK here..What is UTG limping here with that has a 4 in it? honestly. He could have TT-QQ...KK is unlikely and AA he raises preflop most likely. A flush draw is possible and he could believe his QcJc count as 2 overs ontop of the flush draw...All these hands play it like this as well....after all, this is 50Nl...I pause for a little while and raise big....maybe shove.EDIT: after reading responses? wow, i'm surprised so many people say fold. I really don't like folding here. That's very weak tight imho.

[linkwood 0]

This smells a LOT like quad 4's. I know it's an unlikely holding, but the way it played out, UTG is extremely strong. Because he just called the SB, he's obviously not afraid of the flush draw. That means he has a full house or better most of the time in this spot.However, something to think about here is that OP said that SB always bets out $.50 regardless. UTG might know this too, so it might not be as strong as call-reraises tend to be and should be only thought of as strong as a regular check-raise. Still, there's a good chance you're beat here. JJ and QQ would have probably reraised you preflop or at least opened the raising preflop. The best you can hope for here is A9 or 1010. Nothing else makes sense.Folding is the best play and is not weak at all. It's just logical.

I think this is key, but for a different reason. If I'm sitting there with three fours or 9s full I will just call the sb to trap both the PFR and the sb for more money. I really think that UTG is super strong here.

[Snamuh 0]

The call-reraise is one of the strongest looking post flop plays in holdem and it's rarely a bluff because it's so hard to set up. I like a fold here.

I agree. What does he call with and then just reraise big with? Your hand looks a lot like an overpair and it looks like villain has 99 here.

[mtdesmoines 3]

While you're right about the bet sizing, it's not the sizing, but the sequence that you should find troubling. How many players do you know that will call when action is to them the first time on a postflop street and then reraise when it gets back to them again and show up with some kind of bluff? Also consider that the villain is OOP and also didn't reraise a large amount trying to end the hand right there, so whatever he's got, he's not afraid to play it out of position to a player who raised preflop and raised again on the flop.

I think at this level, all the bets up to this point are relatively weak. There's a good chance the villain is trying to take advantage of the weakness. Weak flop bets invite this troubling sequence of events. If our hero bet out pot or overbet the pot, and the villain re-raised us, I'd still have trouble devining what hand he calls with a preflop CALL of 5x BB that hits this flop hard enough to beat our KK. This smells like a bluff to me, or a flush draw on a board we've double paired.Villain is clowning on our weak bet. Now we've unintentionally trapped him. Reraise and bring it home. AA,99, and 44 are only three hands out of many. We shove here and we make money long term.

[IAGTTAYM 0]

I think I like the fold if I don't have a read. You need about 42% equity to shove. If you think he could turn up with some small-middle pairs, or a AcXc sometimes, it gets closer, but not close enough to make a shove clearly ev+, as he prolly folds any hand that we beat (except the flushdraw) if we indeed shove...EDIT: The flop raise looks kinda weakish, which prolly makes it more likely for him to be on the move, but meh, I'm tight so I'm folding.

[GabeTheKid 0]

I think at this level, all the bets up to this point are relatively weak. There's a good chance the villain is trying to take advantage of the weakness. Weak flop bets invite this troubling sequence of events. If our hero bet out pot or overbet the pot, and the villain re-raised us, I'd still have trouble devining what hand he calls with a preflop CALL of 5x BB that hits this flop hard enough to beat our KK. This smells like a bluff to me, or a flush draw on a board we've double paired.Villain is clowning on our weak bet. Now we've unintentionally trapped him. Reraise and bring it home. AA,99, and 44 are only three hands out of many. We shove here and we make money long term.

qft

[Verdimme 0]

The call-reraise is one of the strongest looking post flop plays in holdem and it's rarely a bluff because it's so hard to set up. I like a fold here.

I do agree with this.Problem is, alot of villains think hands like TT-QQ and even A9 that they flatcalled PF with are now the nuts and play them like that.I'm not folding here.

[Webslinger516 0]

I do agree with this.Problem is, alot of villains think hands like TT-QQ and even A9 that they flatcalled PF with are now the nuts and play them like that.I'm not folding here.

The thing is, I think it might be a mistake to assume the villain in this case is just as stupid as other players that play at this level. I wouldn't want to get into the habit of underestimating opponents based on the blinds and buy-ins. What I would like to know is how the Villains has played up to this point. If there is no reads, and no history with this villain, I think it's a mistake to assume villain is an automatic donk.

[mtdesmoines 3]

The thing is, I think it might be a mistake to assume the villain in this case is just as stupid as other players that play at this level. I wouldn't want to get into the habit of underestimating opponents based on the blinds and buy-ins. What I would like to know is how the Villains has played up to this point. If there is no reads, and no history with this villain, I think it's a mistake to assume villain is an automatic donk.

Right, so with no reads, we're down to looking at what beats us here. any 4 -- horrific to call 5x BB pf -- so unlikely that we now mark villain as a buddy and follows him forever44 -- my philosophy is that we can stack off to quads all we want and end up ahead. 99 -- the likeliest of all the nightmare scenarios; we're "live" if this is what he hasAA -- he played them like ****; but it's possibleI think we're looking at a flush draw, QQ or some such hand.

[Acid_Knight 2]

It's more unlikely that the villain limped preflop with TT-QQ, flat called a preflop raise and then flat called a bet on the flop, got raised AND THEN decided to raise than it is that the villain appears with 4x in their hand here.Saying that QQ-TT is more likely than 4x is insane becuase of the way the hand played out. I'll buy the flush draw as a likely holding, but I think that if he had QQ-TT, he'd have announced it soemwhere along the way.

[mtdesmoines 3]

The call-reraise is one of the strongest looking post flop plays in holdem and it's rarely a bluff because it's so hard to set up. I like a fold here.

I think that it's a very unorthodox play and, frankly, so difficult to pull of without a 100% reliable raiseaholic behind, that anyone making this plays at this level is probably not conscious of it as a strong-looking play. C/r, yes. Call/raise ... prolly never ocurred to the villain. And I'm serious.

[Verdimme 0]

The thing is, I think it might be a mistake to assume the villain in this case is just as stupid as other players that play at this level. I wouldn't want to get into the habit of underestimating opponents based on the blinds and buy-ins. What I would like to know is how the Villains has played up to this point. If there is no reads, and no history with this villain, I think it's a mistake to assume villain is an automatic donk.

You are ofcourse right when you say that we can't assume everybody is a donk, but we also can't assume that they play near perfect/ rational.Hero's raise here looks really weak in my opinion, and based alone on that action villain could have decided its time to pull a move. To be honest, I kinda see this as a trade off situation where we would get the KK stack everytime we would be holding a boat or a 4 here. Everytime a player makes a stupid bluff (or a valuebet in his eyes;TT+) I profit because I wouldn't make that mistake when the roles are reversed. He is getting my stack here if he can beat KK. I'm not outthinking myself.

[mtdesmoines 3]

It's more unlikely that the villain limped preflop with TT-QQ, flat called a preflop raise and then flat called a bet on the flop, got raised AND THEN decided to raise than it is that the villain appears with 4x in their hand here.Saying that QQ-TT is more likely than 4x is insane becuase of the way the hand played out. I'll buy the flush draw as a likely holding, but I think that if he had QQ-TT, he'd have announced it soemwhere along the way.

Insane? I don't think so. Look at the action. Preflop: Hero is MP with K, K. UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, SB calls $2.25, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.Flop: ($8) 9, 4, 4 (3 players)SB bets $0.5, UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $4, SB calls $3.50, UTG raises to $14.5, Hero folds, SB folds.UTG limped and then called a raise with two people giving action. AA re-pops PF hard. QQJJTT is well in his range here. He can call a raise, but doesn't want to push TT-QQ into a raiser and a calller and see an A or K on the flop; maybe even a Q. So he's assuming that he's looking up at an AQ/AK and a whatever. Flop comes safe for his QQ-TT pp, he initiates action, and then waits for the draws and big ace to make their blocker bets, and then he pounces.

[linkwood 0]

Insane? I don't think so. Look at the action. Preflop: Hero is MP with K, K. UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, SB calls $2.25, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.Flop: ($8) 9, 4, 4 (3 players)SB bets $0.5, UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $4, SB calls $3.50, UTG raises to $14.5, Hero folds, SB folds.UTG limped and then called a raise with two people giving action. AA re-pops PF hard. QQJJTT is well in his range here. He can call a raise, but doesn't want to push TT-QQ into a raiser and a calller and see an A or K on the flop; maybe even a Q. So he's assuming that he's looking up at an AQ/AK and a whatever. Flop comes safe for his QQ-TT pp, he initiates action, and then waits for the draws and big ace to make their blocker bets, and then he pounces.

Limping with 1010-QQ UTG 6 max? I don't buy it.

[Webslinger516 0]

UTG limped and then called a raise with two people giving action. AA re-pops PF hard. QQJJTT is well in his range here. He can call a raise, but doesn't want to push TT-QQ into a raiser and a calller and see an A or K on the flop; maybe even a Q. So he's assuming that he's looking up at an AQ/AK and a whatever. Flop comes safe for his QQ-TT pp, he initiates action, and then waits for the draws and big ace to make their blocker bets, and then he pounces.

The thing is he didn't initiate any action.. he just called the small blind and re-popped. That's exactly how a smart player would play a monster hand in this spot. The only thing that makes this situation weird for me, that makes me even consider staying in the hand, is that SB always bets out $.50 every flop. This essentially makes UTG's move a regular checkraise.Here's the bottom line for me. I'd have only invested $6.50 on this hand. With big pots, I like to have big hands and chip away at the smaller pots. In this situation, KK just doesn't seem big enough. Someone mentioned folding here "seems too weak tight", but so what? they won't know I folded KK, if I just throw it into the muck. Let them try to do the same move when I'm strong and it will come back to me.

[Cadam11 0]

I agree I miss reraised on the flop I was meaning to do around 7 or so (which would have been close to pot size). Also he was around 30/10.

[mtdesmoines 3]

The thing is he didn't initiate any action.. he just called the small blind and re-popped. That's exactly how a smart player would play a monster hand in this spot.

Really. If he was smart and had a monster, why did he scare you off the hand instead of pulling in your turn bets? You were obviously interested in the hand and willing to put in more chips.