San Antonio Spurs

[Jadaki 0]

How is Duncan overrated when the Spurs never won a title till he got there. He is the reason they are who they are.

[tskillz187 0]

How is Duncan overrated when the Spurs never won a title till he got there. He is the reason they are who they are.

Duncan is really good, he's just overrated. He's all defense every year, two years ago Amare avg 37ppg on him for the series. Now he doesn't have to cover other teams best post up player, Oberto does, he also has two of the leagues best perimeter defenders (though they do it in completely opposite ways) with Bowen and Ginobili. I'd take Shaq over him everytime, he shoots foul shots only slightly better and has never been as dominant at either end of the floor and shrinks in the clutch more often than he rises to it. Duncan didn't make a bad team great or anything, he was lucky to fall in the situation he did and he has made the most of it.David Robinson would have won a title with this core, Karl Malone would have won a title with this core as well. Duncan is very good but he certainly isn't carrying the Spurs single handedly, this is a playoff team in the West without him.

[Cappy37 0]

I think the tandem of Sean Elliot/Bruce Bowen would be the 5th spot in your dynasty.. Defense + Outside shooting are a huge part of what makes the Spurs a great team.Look at the Bull's Dynasty.. Jordan.. Pippen...Grant/Rodman/Kukoc/Kerr/Paxon... You don't need 5 guys who can put up 20 points on any given night.. I'm pretty sure there are at least 27 teams in the league that would be tickled pink to win 4 in 9 years and not be considered a "dynasty" by bored media sportswriters...

[tskillz187 0]

Look at the Bull's Dynasty.. Jordan.. Pippen...Grant/Rodman/Kukoc/Kerr/Paxon... You don't need 5 guys who can put up 20 points on any given night..

Yeah I agree, I just meant the teams are so much different because Duncan is the only guy staying the same, much due to the amount of time in between, whereas the Bulls were boom boom boom, so the team was very similar.

[Cappy37 0]

Yeah I agree, I just meant the teams are so much different because Duncan is the only guy staying the same, much due to the amount of time in between, whereas the Bulls were boom boom boom, so the team was very similar.

Well, Jordan and Pippen were the only mainstays.. Grant became Rodman, Paxon became Kerr, Wennington became Longley.. etc... The great Laker and Celtic teams were the only real dynasties of the modern era that had more than one or two HOF type talents for extended periods of time. What the Spurs really have going for them is Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili aren't going anywhere else anytime soon, and they have just enough flexibility to keep the Barry/Bowen/Rose/Claxton/Nesterovic types rotating into the locker room. Plus, no one out West is incredibly good. I don't see Grant Hill having a big impact for Phoenix, especially in any game after the first 82(!). Will they be willing to keep both Amare & Matrix? Utah's the real danger, but I still think they may be a year away. Dallas is always a wild card. No one out East is even remotely close to competing at this point, unless the Bulls grow a pair and bring in a top-tier player.. As a long-time Blazer fan, believe me when I tell you that having 5 or 6 "B+" talents = heartbreak, not championship. The Bulls need to bring in a Kobe/Garnett type, or at the very least someone who can score inside, like a Pau Gasol. I really don't see the Spurs falling back in the West much at all. Now or in the near future.. If they win 5 or 6 in 12 years, the dynasty would most likely be a forgone conclusion.

[tskillz187 0]

I think the Spurs are on their last leg this upcoming year. Manu is definitely less of a slasher and more of a shooter now which hurts. Duncan will be one year older though he is always solid and I think Parker is right around where he is going to stay.One more yr on Finley, Horry, Barry, Oberto and Bowen. They could win it next yr but after that they need to make some decent moves in the offseason. I think the Mavs are the favorites to win with the Spurs right behind them. I don't trust Phoenix ever because they think O first no matter what people say about their indivudal defense. I also think "Matrix" is the most overrated player ever, he's an avg 3 in my book, he really has no position, not big enough to be a 4 not good enough shooter to be a three, luckily he gets to run all the time and has a sick PG.Utah lacks a little too much killer mentality I think Deron played over his ability this past postseason and will not be that good, but he's legit and so is Boozer. Unfortunately all of their white players aren't very good and shrunk in the postseason.I'd like Houston to make a run because I love T-Mac, but that hasn't happened yet and they are still 1 or 2 solid players away. I always like Denver too, on paper they are monsters and with one full season they might get the pieces going in the right direction. Their biggest problem is they always face the Spurs in the first round.

[Cappy37 0]

Utah lacks a little too much killer mentality I think Deron played over his ability this past postseason and will not be that good, but he's legit and so is Boozer. Unfortunately all of their white players aren't very good and shrunk in the postseason.

That team is YOUNG. Utah is only going to get better. That team has incredible potential. AK47 needs to get back on track. Paul Millsap was *the* late round steal of the draft last year. Williams is simply incredible for his age. They have Okur AND Boozer up front.. None of these guys are even sniffing 30 years of age. Sloan is tickled pink he stuck it out, I guarantee you.

I'd like Houston to make a run because I love T-Mac, but that hasn't happened yet and they are still 1 or 2 solid players away. I always like Denver too, on paper they are monsters and with one full season they might get the pieces going in the right direction. Their biggest problem is they always face the Spurs in the first round.

Houston has quietly stocked away the "championship pieces" type of player the last couple of years. Battier is beyond solid. Adelman has gotten sick production out of Bonzi Wells already at 2 separate destinations, he'll add a ton for them as long as he keeps his head on straight. The big if is always Yao and Tmac staying healthy.. It's the old cliche, but no one really wants to play 7 games in June against that squad if it's healthy.I'll be honest, I liked Denver a LOT better with Steve Blake manning the point. I think Camby-Nene-Anthony-Iverson- Blake could have gelled into the premire starting 5 in the West, shame it didn't happen. JR Reid can hit the three, but they are going to hurt without Blake more than they realize. George Karl was very vocal about not wanting to see Blake go. Oh, and the fragile one (Camby) is the only one on that squad that plays even a lick of defense. Toss out Iverson's steals numbers, he gambles constantly to get the steals, he gets beat for an easy two far more often than he creates a turnover. If they expect Iverson to run the point, he's going to have to conserve some energy on the defensive end, which makes a bad situation even worse.

I don't trust Phoenix ever because they think O first no matter what people say about their indivudal defense. I also think "Matrix" is the most overrated player ever, he's an avg 3 in my book, he really has no position, not big enough to be a 4 not good enough shooter to be a three, luckily he gets to run all the time and has a sick PG.

DIE. One of the most underrated defenders in the game, he is routinely put on whoever is the source of opponent offense, he'll guard slashing PGs, spot-up PFs, and anything in between. Always near the top of the league in rebounding. One of the best finishers of the modern era. Has a jump shot that is even uglier looking than Clyde Drexler's was in his prime. So yeah, not the world's greatest outside shooter, but man... Nash creates a lot of easy opportunities for him on the offensive end, but Marion's true game-changing value is in transition (off AND def) and in lock-down defense.

[tskillz187 0]

That team is YOUNG. Utah is only going to get better. That team has incredible potential. AK47 needs to get back on track. Paul Millsap was *the* late round steal of the draft last year. Williams is simply incredible for his age. They have Okur AND Boozer up front.. None of these guys are even sniffing 30 years of age. Sloan is tickled pink he stuck it out, I guarantee you.

Agree. Millsap is a beast. I like them I just think they are a little short for a little while, they are not cream of the crop. I hate Giricek and Harpring. I love AK but apparently he has a fragile mentality, and Okur sometimes looks like Dirk and other times looks like me. Boo(g)er (my long time nickname for him is a stud and so is Deron. They could really use a slasher that finishes though.

Houston has quietly stocked away the "championship pieces" type of player the last couple of years. Battier is beyond solid. Adelman has gotten sick production out of Bonzi Wells already at 2 separate destinations, he'll add a ton for them as long as he keeps his head on straight. The big if is always Yao and Tmac staying healthy.. It's the old cliche, but no one really wants to play 7 games in June against that squad if it's healthy.

I really don't like these offense first coaches. They may thrive in the regular season with Alston and Wells both being much happier but it's going to be tough in the postseason. They won't be the 1 or 2 seed and after that you are playing a very tough team in the first round. I love Battier.

I'll be honest, I liked Denver a LOT better with Steve Blake manning the point. I think Camby-Nene-Anthony-Iverson- Blake could have gelled into the premire starting 5 in the West, shame it didn't happen. JR Reid can hit the three, but they are going to hurt without Blake more than they realize. George Karl was very vocal about not wanting to see Blake go. Oh, and the fragile one (Camby) is the only one on that squad that plays even a lick of defense. Toss out Iverson's steals numbers, he gambles constantly to get the steals, he gets beat for an easy two far more often than he creates a turnover. If they expect Iverson to run the point, he's going to have to conserve some energy on the defensive end, which makes a bad situation even worse.

It's JR Smith right? He should have been a Spur, sigh. Iverson is gonna have a huge chip on his shoulder and I just love AI, I know a ton of people think he hurts the team and jacks too much but I see him put it all out there. They got Atkins who I think is better than Blake, Blake really played like trash for the Nuggets last year and to me has never played well anywhere really. I guess because he handles well and doesn't care about shooting teams like to have him running the point, but I'd like a bit more consistent play out of him. And maybe Kenyon will be healthy, if so they can package Kenyon/Nene + JR Smith for some kind of quality PG piece.

DIE. One of the most underrated defenders in the game, he is routinely put on whoever is the source of opponent offense, he'll guard slashing PGs, spot-up PFs, and anything in between. Always near the top of the league in rebounding. One of the best finishers of the modern era. Has a jump shot that is even uglier looking than Clyde Drexler's was in his prime. So yeah, not the world's greatest outside shooter, but man... Nash creates a lot of easy opportunities for him on the offensive end, but Marion's true game-changing value is in transition (off AND def) and in lock-down defense.

I don't care what anyone says, his little scared quick floater hook thing in the lane is not efficient and for that he is not one of the best finishers in the league. I feel like he could just rev up and dunk on people instead of floating Parker-esque shots. His 3-ball is amusing. I just don't see it and I don't think Phoenix does either. I'd rather have Diaw out there, and a healthy Grant Hill (pardon the oxymoron). Marion's transition O and D is a little worse than Amare he's like a mini Amare with no position. His being on team USA the past few years has been painful to watch because he has nowhere to play on offense.

[Cappy37 0]

Agree. Millsap is a beast. I like them I just think they are a little short for a little while, they are not cream of the crop. I hate Giricek and Harpring. I love AK but apparently he has a fragile mentality, and Okur sometimes looks like Dirk and other times looks like me. Boo(g)er (my long time nickname for him is a stud and so is Deron. They could really use a slasher that finishes though.

AK will always be my hero because his wife gave him a free pass to sleep with one girl a year. That's stardom baby! I have never seen Giricek and Jiri Welsch in the same building, coincidence? Harpring has serious staying power. He's that "champ piece" guy, who if he's the 2nd guy picked for your street basketball game, you are in trouble. If he's the 5th guy, you will dominate. He's surprisingly good on the defensive end, something he was *not* coming out of college. He's got Deron, Booz, Okur, and AK producing in front of him, he's a great 5th guy. Think of how good Utah did this year, discount a little for the Mavs getting bounced prematurely, and give a bonus for how that was the first year this team really got to solidly play as a unit. I really think Utah could be the next dynasty. Or at least the next team without a "supahstah!" to win a championship.

I really don't like these offense first coaches. They may thrive in the regular season with Alston and Wells both being much happier but it's going to be tough in the postseason. They won't be the 1 or 2 seed and after that you are playing a very tough team in the first round. I love Battier.

My mom went to school with Adelman and he coached my Blazers, so I'll always be biased in an Adelman discussion (be warned!). He got bounced unjustly out of Portland (where he did nothing but win), bounced unjustly out of Sactown (where he did nothing but win, even at the end when he had 30% of a an NBA roster). I think Houston makes one final splash with their MLE and seriously challenges this year.. Well, until Yao and Tmac go on the IR.. So yeah, I see your point.

It's JR Smith right? He should have been a Spur, sigh. Iverson is gonna have a huge chip on his shoulder and I just love AI, I know a ton of people think he hurts the team and jacks too much but I see him put it all out there. They got Atkins who I think is better than Blake, Blake really played like trash for the Nuggets last year and to me has never played well anywhere really. I guess because he handles well and doesn't care about shooting teams like to have him running the point, but I'd like a bit more consistent play out of him. And maybe Kenyon will be healthy, if so they can package Kenyon/Nene + JR Smith for some kind of quality PG piece.I don't care what anyone says, his little scared quick floater hook thing in the lane is not efficient and for that he is not one of the best finishers in the league. I feel like he could just rev up and dunk on people instead of floating Parker-esque shots. His 3-ball is amusing. I just don't see it and I don't think Phoenix does either. I'd rather have Diaw out there, and a healthy Grant Hill (pardon the oxymoron). Marion's transition O and D is a little worse than Amare he's like a mini Amare with no position. His being on team USA the past few years has been painful to watch because he has nowhere to play on offense.

DIE (me!). I totally forgot about Kenyon Martin! OK, I take Denver seriously again. I'm sure Kevin Pritchard would give Denver Jarret Jack for JR smith or Nene lol. I'm not going to hold my breath though. As for Marion, I watch a TON of basketball. And I always try and catch at least part of PHX anytime I'm home from work in time, and believe me, Marion has that Rodman quality.. He's just so much more intense out there. He's got that sixth sense for rebounding, for making cuts, for spotting up, etc.. His jump shot looks like a wounded duck, I know. He may even be Joe Johnson w/out Nash getting him the rock. But he's the constant on that team. Barbosa and Diaw come and go, Stoudamire can totally disappear on offense (very odd for a guy that big), Raja is a streak shooter, but Marion always fills up the stat column and does the little thing. PHX and Marion really need each other. PHX may be the only team in the league that doesn't need outside shooting from it's 3/4 guy.

[princeof56k 0]

How is Duncan overrated when the Spurs never won a title till he got there. He is the reason they are who they are.

I'm shocked that this is even being debated.

[mcpickl 0]

Duncan is really good, he's just overrated. He's all defense every year, two years ago Amare avg 37ppg on him for the series Now he doesn't have to cover other teams best post up player, Oberto does, he also has two of the leagues best perimeter defenders (though they do it in completely opposite ways) with Bowen and Ginobili. I'd take Shaq over him everytime, he shoots foul shots only slightly better and has never been as dominant at either end of the floor and shrinks in the clutch more often than he rises to it. Duncan didn't make a bad team great or anything, he was lucky to fall in the situation he did and he has made the most of it.David Robinson would have won a title with this core, Karl Malone would have won a title with this core as well. Duncan is very good but he certainly isn't carrying the Spurs single handedly, this is a playoff team in the West without him.

Boy T, you are really into chearry picking a series to find a flaw with a player.Yes Amare had a 5 game stretch where he went 37 pts 10 rebs against the SpursDuncan also went 27.5 points and 12 rebs in those 5 gamesDuncan also advanced 4 games to 1I didn't watch every game of that series, but I'd guess something along these lines happened. Nash repeatedly beats Tony Parker to penetrate since Parker is a horrible defender. Duncan has to leave Amare to stop Nash from penetrating to the basket. Nash lays the ball off to Duncans' man, Amare. Amare is open because the Spurs D didn't rotate quickly enough. Amare dunks.Whatever the strategy was, it appears to have worked. after all, the goal is to win the games, not have the best stats from an individual on the floor.I'm pretty certain that Duncans' teams keep winning with an ever changing cast isn't a coincidence. I think it's because they have the best player in the game.

[tskillz187 0]

Duncan gets to roam defensively against a lot of teams because Oberto and Bowen cover up basically every position that Duncan would have to cover. He protects the rim well and is in the right place almost all of the time, he's a great player, he's just not the best in the game IMO.I take Kobe. Just because championships go through big men doesn't mean that they are better players than guards, just means there are more amazing 6'4''-6'9'' players than there are 6'10''+ players so when you get a great big man he gets to play against far inferior big men.

[mcpickl 0]

Duncan gets to roam defensively against a lot of teams because Oberto and Bowen cover up basically every position that Duncan would have to cover. He protects the rim well and is in the right place almost all of the time, he's a great player, he's just not the best in the game IMO.I take Kobe. Just because championships go through big men doesn't mean that they are better players than guards, just means there are more amazing 6'4''-6'9'' players than there are 6'10''+ players so when you get a great big man he gets to play against far inferior big men.

You've got this reversed.Oberto and Bowen are able to focus on covering just their guy because Duncan protects the rim so well and will stop the guy who gets loose.(ahem, usually Parkers guy)Do you think a team ever plays San Antonio and says, lets attack with the guy Duncan is guarding because we have no chance against Oberto?Come on

[tskillz187 0]

You've got this reversed.Oberto and Bowen are able to focus on covering just their guy because Duncan protects the rim so well and will stop the guy who gets loose.(ahem, usually Parkers guy)Do you think a team ever plays San Antonio and says, lets attack with the guy Duncan is guarding because we have no chance against Oberto?Come on

This is because Duncan is a great team defender, not individual defender. You don't put your best 1 on 1 defender to roam free, he's just not their best 1 on 1 defender, he is however smart, tall, and long. That's more than enough to be a great team defender to alter shots when everyone is funneling you their man while you sit back and cover the 3rd-5th option.

[princeof56k 0]

This is because Duncan is a great team defender, not individual defender. You don't put your best 1 on 1 defender to roam free, he's just not their best 1 on 1 defender, he is however smart, tall, and long. That's more than enough to be a great team defender to alter shots when everyone is funneling you their man while you sit back and cover the 3rd-5th option.

Duncan is an outstanding 1 on 1 defender. He can lock people down and is called to do so on occassion. The reason the Spurs let him roam free most of the time is becuase he does more damage that way. Duncan basically plays defense like a center. You want guys like that close to the basket regardless of their 1 on 1 defensive abilities.

[mcpickl 0]

This is because Duncan is a great team defender, not individual defender. You don't put your best 1 on 1 defender to roam free, he's just not their best 1 on 1 defender, he is however smart, tall, and long. That's more than enough to be a great team defender to alter shots when everyone is funneling you their man while you sit back and cover the 3rd-5th option.

that's just the strategy the Spurs use. I'm quite sure if the Spurs said "Tim, don't worry about protecting the rim and covering up for your teammates mistakes, just lock down your guy." he would shut that guy down. Sounds like you're blaming him for the Spurs using his immense talent to be the best team defender in the game. It would be silly for them to not use him to do that. It appears to be working somewhat successfully, wouldn't you say?If you have a problem with Tim Duncan, you are nit pitcking to the highest degree.

[Jadaki 0]

I'm shocked that this is even being debated.

But are you enjoying it?

[princeof56k 0]

But are you enjoying it?

Its the offseason. I enjoy any basketball discussion no matter how crazy it is.

[Jadaki 0]

Its the offseason. I enjoy any basketball discussion no matter how crazy it is.

True, maybe we should start a Fantasy league for the regulars in the forum here, so we can have something else to discuss.

[ChunkyLuver69 0]

Spurs are the best period

[Jadaki 0]

Spurs are the best period

From: San Antonio, Texas

Look mom, a fanboy!