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Hi there,I would like to see some opinions and hopefully get some advice from someone who has "been there" in their early poker days.Let me start by telling you about myself.I am a very confident person. This reflects onto my poker attitude as well. I feel very confident as a poker player. I started playing poker about a year ago. Some friends who had this poker club f rom work showed me. I loved it because i loved the fact that there was risk involved in this type of competition.At first I was just learning the game. I gradually became better and these days I feel like one of the better ones of our private little club. My dream is to be able to live off poker(whos isnt). I started playing online about 9 months ago. Ive had my ups and downs playing poker. I guess when I really started feeling confident, I started depositing more and more money onto the site to try and make some cash.I havent had any luck doing this so far. I usually go in with 100 bucks, then make some money - Sometimes even more than 500 bucks - But finally lose it all. I play No Limit Hold Em only since I feel thats my best game. Maybe I shouldnt be playing at all tho.In the last few months Ive spent thousands of dollars trying to start something with this game. Ive tried to learn from my mistakes and I feel that mostly I can be good about controlling my emotions(obviously not enough). Every month I find myself desperately overdrafting my creditcard "knowing" that I can win it all back. I dont know when to quit I suppose.What Id really like - Is to hear from someone whos gone down that road. Starting with a small deposit and grinding their way up to the high stakes.How did they learn from their mistakes? Did they go broke all the time in the beginning as well? What were their biggest lessons that helped improve their game, not just game strategy-wise but knowing when to quit and what not.This isnt a whine post.This is a poker player, a competitor whos used to being able to reach the top, whos confidence is seriously shaken leaving me wondering if I can really master poker at all. If youve been thru some of what Ive written about, please post your thoughts to help out a fellow poker player. Thanks in advance,~A.

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You are playing well over your means. The swings in NL cash is way to high for a player like you. My advice is to play lower limit games if you are only depositing 100 bucks at a time. Granted limit and no limit are two different games. Play the really low limits first before moving up.Good Luck.

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Something i've learned is that poker isn't something you can even come close to mastering in a year. I've gone through similar swings (without the severe financial crunch you appear to be having though). I can restrain myself, but I've gone on my runs where I turned a $50 buyin into 500, then lost it the next day. It just happened to me, except I was smart enought o pull a little bit out before the freefall. The thing that I've found that works is, when you start, start at a certain limit and tell yourself "i'll move up in limits when I hit x dollars" and make sure to stick to that no matter what. Set limits and restraints for yourself so you don't go on tilt as much.

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The best advice I can give you is to never play with money that you can't afford to lose. It is too hard to play the game you need to play to be successful while being worried about the money too much. Play low limits and learn the game. stair step your way up as you your bankroll increases. It sounds like simple advice but a little self control will help you gain some confidence in the game while not going into debt trying to hit it big. Take care and good luck,Flakyjake

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NL is not for income. Just about every professional poker player plays limit poker to make their living off because if you contantly make the correct decisions, you will mathematically be a winner over the long run. You can't get outdrawn for all of your chips either. So many times one person will flop a set or 2 pair, and one will flop a straight and they both get all of their money in, only for the board to pait and the person with the straight can do nothing about it. Limit poker takes those swings out of the game and if someone does outdraw you, you have the chance to realize it and get out of the pot. Limit poker is a world of difference from NL, as I have bought some books to try to get the basics of limit poker down. Right now, I play $30 SNGS, while it is NL, since the entry fee is always the same, I never take a huge hit. If you plan to make a living off poker, I suggest buying a few books on limit poker and start out low and slowly work your way up. It's what I'm trying to do right now and even thought it is the same game, limit is harder for me to play.

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Lots to deal with here.

I started playing poker about a year ago. Some friends who had this poker club f rom work showed me. I loved it because i loved the fact that there was risk involved in this type of competition.
If the risk involved is what you love the most about poker, then my concern is that you are not a poker player, but a gambler who is playing poker. I think that almost all poker players enjoy the element of risk to some degree. If you asked the players who make a living playing poker if they would take a job that guaranteed to pay them an annual income equal to their best year of earnings ever, to do some menial task - like filling out forms - they would say no if it meant that they couldn't play poker. But if for you, the risk is the best thing about playing poker - not winning money, not the sense of satisfaction at successfully competing against others, but the sheer thrill - then you're sounding less like someone who wants to become a pro and more like someone who is a compulsive gambler.
At first I was just learning the game. I gradually became better and these days I feel like one of the better ones of our private little club.
Is this the source of the confidence you've talked about? I have no idea how much you poker club friends play for, or how good they are. At the risk of sounding like I'm taking a shot at you, let's just say that there's at least a chance that you're a small fish in an even smaller pond. Lots of local "champs" have been hit hard when they stepped out of their local game.
I havent had any luck doing this so far. I usually go in with 100 bucks, then make some money - Sometimes even more than 500 bucks - But finally lose it all.
I may be overreacting to semantics here, but you said you haven't had any luck doing this. You didn't say you've had poor results, or that you haven't been playing well. You mentioned luck. Everyone gets a "lucky" or "unlucky" card to win or lose the pot once in a while. But you're consistently losing $100 a crack to the tune of at least a few grand now. The odds that you're just having a bad run are approaching the microscopic level, while the percentage chance that you're losing because of mistakes that you're making is almost 100.
I play No Limit Hold Em only since I feel thats my best game. Maybe I shouldnt be playing at all tho.
I'll talk some more about game choice later, should you decide to keep playing. But I think there's at least a chance that you should never play poker again. You talk about loving the risk, and wishing you could do this for a living. Is playing poker what you really want to do, or are you currently employed doing something you don't like? At the risk of sounding like someone who charges five cents for psychiatric help, your attraction to poker may have more to do with your dissatisfaction with another area of your life.
Ive tried to learn from my mistakes and I feel that mostly I can be good about controlling my emotions(obviously not enough). Every month I find myself desperately overdrafting my creditcard "knowing" that I can win it all back. I dont know when to quit I suppose.
You're acknowledging glimmers of self-awareness here. Lack of emotional control can devastate a poker player. Get angry, and you can start to play like a maniac. Get scared, and you can miss opportunites to increase the money you make with good hands. Again, "knowing" you can win it all back sounds more like a compulsive gambler to me.
What Id really like - Is to hear from someone whos gone down that road. Starting with a small deposit and grinding their way up to the high stakes.  How did they learn from their mistakes? Did they go broke all the time in the beginning as well? What were their biggest lessons that helped improve their game, not just game strategy-wise but knowing when to quit and what not.
I'm torn here, because at this point, I think the last thing you need is to hear is a "success" story. I'm afraid it will only reinforce your ideas that you can make a living doing this. Still, in the interests of full-disclosure...Hi, I'm Mister Hand. I'm a small stakes professional poker player. This is my second go-around at being a poker pro. I first tried it ten years ago, bolstered by winning a super-satellite that got me an entry into the WSOP final event. I started doing moderately well in $5-10 hold 'em games. Built up a bit of a bankroll, went to Vegas, and lasted all of a month. What happened? A combination of poor bankroll management (playing games at too high limits) and playing against stronger competition than I faced at the midwest casino I had previously played at.I've played recreationally the past several years, winning a little bit at poker online. But "real life" expenses forced me to use most of my bankroll.In January, I deposited $200 into an online poker site. I started by playing $10 NL holdem single table tourneys. As my bankroll increased, I moved up to higher games. These days I either play the $200 single table tourneys or the $15-30 limit cash games. I'm making low five figures.Reading the last paragraph, it sounds a lot easier than it was. I was down to my last $50 on that $200 deposit at one point. It took five months of regular play to get to the limits I can play now, and that's playing several hours a day, five days a week. If you're working a full-time job in addition to playing (I wasn't), you won't be able to play as many hours as I did. And even though I'm a winning player, I 've still had losing streaks of over $3500. More important, I also had a wife who could support us financially until my bankroll had increased to the point where I could contribute my fair share of earnings to our expenses. The emotional support was at least as important.Have I learned from my mistakes? Yes. Does that mean I never make those mistakes again? No. But I do make them less frequently, and have a higher degree of awareness when I do make thm. So in the end, what is my advice to you?First, I would stop playing for at least a month. You need time to do some serious self-examination. If the thought of going for a month without playing makes your stomach turn, then imo it's even more likely that you're a compulsive gambler. During your one month sabbatical, I think you should do a lot of reading about the game. You should have plenty of time to immerse yourself in the world of poker texts now that you're not playing. There are threads on this forum with various recommendations. See if you find yourself making the kind of mistakes the authors mention. If you decide that this is really what you want to do, then I suggest you do one of two things the next time you deposit money into a poker account.First, you can do what others here have suggested - play low stakes limit poker. However, most experts recommend having 300 to 400 times the size of the largest limit bet you'd be playing at, which means that even playing at the .50 - $1 tables, they'd want to have at least $300 to assure that their skill will overcome any temporary bad runs. So instead of depositing $100 at a time, it might be a good idea to not play until you can save up at least three or four hundred dollars. Playing the low limit games is probably the best course of action, should you decide to keep playing.I'm hesistant to recommend my second option, as it may reinforce some of the traits you're describing that worry me the most. But if that "thrill" of playing no limit is important to you, you might want to try what I did - playing the $10 NL hold em single table tourneys. At least that way, you can experience the all-or-nothing thrill while limiting your risk at each sitting.But if you do this, keep these things in mind at all times:1. Most poker books deal either with cash games or large multi-table tournaments. Single table tourneys are kind of a "grey area" between the two, with elements of the correct strategies from each. 2. Again, you should have at least $300 to deposit. Yes, I did it with $200, but to be blunt, I was better then than you are now. 3. When I say the $10 tables, I mean the ten dollar tables. That means you don't play in a $20 tourney after losing two straight $10 tourneys to "get it back quickly" or because "the cards are due to run well for you". Keep playing at $10 tournies until you at least double your bankroll.4. If you do double your bankroll, you can step up to $20 games. But if your bankroll goes back down to the $300 mark, you go back to the $10 games until you're back up to $600. Never play at a higher level unless you have 30 times the entry fee. So you'll need $900 to play at the $30 tables, $1500 to play at the $50 tables, etc. If you study hard, stick to the limits we're recommending, with the minimum starting bankrolls, and you still go broke - or if you're unable to maintain the discipline necessary to stay with the low limit games without taking a "plunge" into high limit or no limit games - then I think you should stop playing poker, or at the very least give up the idea of making it a career, and only play with money that won't hurt if you lose it.
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Mister Hand.... I must say... that is one of the best, most throrough posts I've ever seen on any forum. That was more helpful than most people can gather through people's paragraphs here and there giving mixed advice when someone asks a question like that. So I just wanted to say good job. I see you live near chicago, I was curious where, because I'm in chicago also... I wonder where you play around here mainly. Anyway, you can reply here or send me a PM if you like... but great job on that post, I'll make sure to link to it whenever someone asks a question about how to start doing well playing poker.

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Some thoughts for you to consider:

  • [*] You said you play only NL Hold'em. That's mistake #1. Good players learn to play several games. You will learn about your NL game by playing other games. [*] Be careful what tourneys you play. Some of the big ones with lots of participation require a lot of skill and luck just to cash. [*] Take a page out of Daniel's play book and only play when you are genuinely interested in playing. Be sure you have the time, seriousness, and mental/physical energy whenever you sit down at that table with your money.[*] If you're overdrawing your credit card then it's time to give it a break for a while. If for no other reason but to prove to yourself that you're in control and gambling isn't.[*] Lastly, keep a poker journal. You want to improve your game and be in control? Want to see trends, strengths, weaknesses in your play? A journal will be a big help.
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although i didnt post they orginal post, it sounds kinda like me. Whilst in University, i got into sports gamblin, in a bad way, didnt make any real sense though, i was betting on my personal favourites, not studying any form, etc just stupid stupid greed for money, and basically run up £2k debt on credit cards. I discovered poker, and turned my math knowledge and generally read up and basically starting winning against my flat mates, and got a big hit on UB that paid that debt off, but dont wanna go there again, but could see how easy u could via poker, and have had my poker roll get crippled often, but thread like this are slowing teaching me to control itdave

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A few things you can tryStop playing, if you cant you got a problem!Go down in limit and try FL, it you might not get as big a rush as higher limits or NL, but if you play for the rush you got a problem.Confident, good, overconfident bad, look at your handhistory, sounds like you get overconfident after winning for awhile and play hands you shouldnt.

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Mister as others have said that was a great post with alot of thought and reason behind it. As others have mentioned poker is not gambling but is a skill game. My one recommendation to our person in need is this, if you need the thrill of playing nl let me recommend playing the .01/.02 nl cash games. This will allow you to get back to the basics and once you make $50 at this then move to the .05/.10. Once you make $250 at this then move up. It will take you time to do this but you need to slow down and play at a level and not move up till you are far superiour than your opponents. I would also recommend the occasional $5 or $1 tournaments, these will give you the thrill you obviously seek as you will be playing for higher payouts. And yes you can be very profitable at playing these low buy in tournaments, I know I have as I rarely play a tourny over a $20 buy in but yet have managed to make about 2k a month playing poker the past 18 months. I have yet to move up as I use poker to pay most of my bills and therefor my playing bankroll is only a few g's. But, that doesnt mean that you can't grind out a decent income with playing low limits and buy in tournaments. You need to slow down, this is not gambling, its poker.

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Mister Hand,, that was a really well thought out response.. A lot of the info you put in there has already helped me out tremendously. thank you.....By the way, how did fair in your WSOP experiance 10 years ago?

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As others have advised you, learn to play limit if you're building a bankroll.Personally, I'm not a big fan of the $10 sit and go advice, as your hourly return on investment of playing .50/$1 with the same $300 bankroll is going to be substantially higher at an equivlent level of skill.Also, I personally find SnG's terribly boring. Most of the decisions for a good SnG player are very clear cut and eventually the quick blind escelation leads to a lot of push or fold situations. I have a posative expectation to play them, but unless I'm really in the mood I can't be bothered. You might find they're fascinating.You could, and people certaainly do, make a living just playing sit and gos (or satalites as they ussually called live even if they're not a satalite to anyhting in particular). A close friend of mine is a "satalite pro" He makes a living just playing one table tournaments. Anyway, back to you.If you're determined to make a go of playing NL it's probably a good idea if you figure out if you're a winning player who is unlucky or if your a losing player. Start with a real NL bankroll and play a few thousand hands.A good NL bankroll is about 20 buy ins for a 100BB max buy in game. So if you're playing $25 max buy in NL you should start with $500. If you burn through the whole bankroll it's 99% likely you're a losing player. If you double your bankroll to $1000, move up to $50 max buy in, etc.You may very well be a winning player who doesn't understand the bankroll requirements. If you're moving up to a $100 buy in game when you have a $500 bankroll you're going to end up losing it eventually even if you're a winning player. Also keep in mind that contrary to what another poster posted, poker ins't a game MOSTLY of skill. It's a game MOSTLY of luck. The skilled player has an edge over the unskilled player, but it's not nearly as signifigant as most people, particularly good players would like to think. Playing poker against a less skilled opponent is like flipping a coing against them where they pay you $1.10 if it's heads and you pay them $1.00 if it's tails. you'd definately take the wager, but you might flip the coin 100 times and have them be ahead. Flip it 1000000 times and you'll make a good bit of money. Don't let the days of bad coinflips get to you. Keep making the right decisons and have enough of a bankroll to fade the variance and it'll work out in the end.If not, there's allways Chess :D

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Mister Hand,, that was a really well thought out response.. A lot of the info you put in there has already helped me out tremendously. thank you.....
You're welcome. I'm glad it could help.
By the way, how did fair in your WSOP experiance 10 years ago?
Horrifically bad. :oops: On the plus side, with the huge growth in WSOP entries the past couple of years, telling people I came in 264th sounds pretty impressive, as long as I don't tell them there were only 268 players the year I made it. :wink:
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i started with the free 2 dollars that paradise gave about a year ago. and i ended up taking about 8 grand off the NL tables before my "retirement" (i got a 9-5 job as an intern computer programmer.... here til march, so maybe i will return to the virtual felt after that) I found that it is best to find a good amount that you feel comfortable with, and stick with it.i found that when i played (usually NL 100's) that i was best off on 2 tables at max buy in. i liked to keep about 300 in the account at all times, and i would quit when i made 200. unless the action was real good...(one night i played for 13 hours... but i had 600 on each table).I made it a point to never strain myself, and if i was losing, then i would just quit. i never put a dime of my hard earned money on there.. it was all profit. i recommend that you play low stakes.... work your way up. hammer out your strategy. get your bankroll up to a few hundred, and give the bigger tables a shot. if you lose, then leave yourself enough to start over in the lil 25's and 10's. eventually u will make it to thge big tables ready to go. dont play scared and dont use money that you need. Limit is more steady, but it is less fun. if i wasnt having fun then i had no reason to play.... stick with it if you enjoy it. one more thing. i HIGHLY recommend that you play multiple tables. if you get antsy (like me) then multiple tables is the way to go. you dont get bored enough to play junk hands when you have 2 other hands on the other tables... Aces come often. its great fun.

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