Agent 008
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Posts posted by Agent 008
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Call the turn, looking to potentially fold the river if 7 or 8 drops and he ships.
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$100,000 Guarantee No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t100/t200 Blinds - 9 playersDeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History ConverterSB: t17056 85.28 BBsBB: t18965 94.83 BBsUTG: t10096 50.48 BBsUTG+1: t4933 24.66 BBsUTG+2: t4471 22.36 BBsMP1: t12946 64.73 BBsHero (MP2): t6695 33.48 BBsCO: t2382 11.91 BBsBTN: t8242 41.21 BBsPre Flop: (t300) Hero is MP2 with A
K4 folds, Hero raises to t400, 2 folds, SB calls t300, BB calls t200Flop: (t1200) K
7 6
(3 players)SB bets t600, BB folds, Hero calls t600Turn: (t2400) Q(2 players)SB bets t2400Hero ? -
You were in the small blind, sounds like the right move to me.
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Protip: the action that we see preflop, on the flop, on the turn and on the river all give us extra information.There are so many things wrong with this I don't even know where to start. Why are you raising with J 7 pre flop and then folding when you have 2 pair? Why are we calling the flop and turn to fold on the river? And are you really going to fold when flopping 2 pair? Fold Pre flop and problem is solved.
I suppose you're right. Next time I'll only play suited aces, and I'll shove them preflop.It's not really that unlikely at all. That # of flops that we can feel comfortable on with J 7 suited are very few.
1). 150bb is considered a pretty deep stack where I live. What kind of stacks do you guys play with?!2). You've got to be kidding me.^ This also makes me want to cry. #1 deepstack play is A MILLION times different than playing a SnG with 1500 chips. I have no idea how you can even relate the two. And trying to extract the maximum value is a much better situation than calling off all of your chips with J 7 first hand into a SnG when you could be easily crushed. -
But what hands out of that range will he call you with that you can beat?I think AK, maybe KQ. J7 for a tie (he was in the bb, after all).If you think he'd be calling you with most of the hands you listed, then sure, shoving is significantly better than calling.After the check raise, you shove.edit, this is why. Put him on a range, not a hand that crushes you.Board: Ks 7h JcDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 68.093% 68.09% 00.00% 35727 1.50 { Js7s }Hand 1: 31.907% 31.90% 00.00% 16740 1.50 { JJ-77, K9s+, KTo+ } -
Sure. But it'll also give me a better chance at defining the strength of his hand - letting me make more appropriate plays for value or cutting my losses if I am likely to be beat. I think, with my style of play against those guys, I'd win more chips on average by calling rather than shoving. But it does seem marginal to me.don't agree with this....there are a lot of cards that are going to make you lose some value, lets says an ace comes on the turn that would hit a lot of his range and yougonna have to check the turn or river for pot control. -
You mean on the flop after his check-raise?I have replied to that in one of the posts above, and why I don't like that play in this situation.To sum it up, I think against that kind of opponent we are going to make him fold most of the hands that we are beating, and call us with any hand that beats ours.A 3-outer that he may have does not concern me very much either.So I don't see what the real benefit of shoving there is.I still think you should have shove in your poll. That's why I didn't vote and I think that's your best option. -
Fix'd.But really, deepstack post-flop play is all about situations like that. Even if you flop the nuts, you are in a "stupid situation" trying to get full value.AND THIS RIGHT HERE IS THE REASON NOT TO PLAY POKER...b/c we get into this stupid situations! -
I don't agree with this. I have explained why I think calling in this situation is worse than folding.The reason why I made this thread is because my first reaction was to call it as well, but the more I think about it, the more I get convinced that folding in that situation was correct - if my assumptions about my opponent are true:1). He is not suicidal.2). He assumes that I am not suicidal.Did you make this post to try and point out what a good read you made? You pose a question that is painfully obvious. All the real questions were on everything except what you had to do in that spot. [...]Calling the all in was a snap call. -
I agree, that wasn't the best play preflop for a SnG, but my losses would have been minimal had I only had a marginal hand post-flop and found that I couldn't outplay my opponent.Anyway, that's somewhat beside the point of this thread.I can do that tooAnd my original statement is still correct. The main purpose of small ball poker is pot control. You want to play abig pot when you have a big hand and a small one when you have a marginal hand. Playing with a marginalhand with the intent of stacking off someone at the table is not its main goal. -
Anyway.When I was in the hand, I had this going through my head:1). He has seen me call his check-raise on the flop, and check-call a big turn bet of his. He has to give me credit for a strong hand.2). There is no reason why he would expect me to fold to his river bet. I was pretty confident he expected me to call.Now, what kind of hands could he be making such a move? AK, two pair, or a set.What else do we know? He just called my raise on the bb. From what I have seen, the average player in those SnGs tends to play AK or KK aggressively preflop. It is possible that he limped with one of those hands, but it is unlikely.Now, unless he is batshit insane, the only hand he could be doing it with that I could be beating was AK. But as I said, it was much more likely that he had a weaker hand preflop.So after thinking all this, I was pretty sure chances were I was beat, and I folded, thinking that he most likely was playing KJ, maybe a pair of 77 or JJ.I turn over my hand, hoping he'd do the same so that I could confirm my read... and he turns over KJ.I still had a good enough stack for those blinds, so I proceeded to build it back up and bust through the bubble.
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Well, that is the reason I raised.Normally, I play SnGs much tighter, but this table seemed reasonably tight in the beginning so I figured there was a good chance I would be deep-stack heads-up in position. Which is an ideal situation for my type of play.it's a headsup pot, most of the time he's gonna miss the flop and you are gonna take it with a continuation bet (don't think you are losing too much value if any)if you think your post flop skills are better than your opponent I think you should be willing to play weaker hands in position.
I disagree.Imagine, that the same thing happens, but after he check-raises you, you somehow get a glimpse of his cards, and see that he has Kx.Would you go all-in in this situation?Now imagine the same thing happens again, but when you look at his hand, you see that he has you beat - he has kings up, or a set. You most definitely are not shoving now.So if you knew exactly what hand he had, there is no situation where shoving is significantly better than calling. According to the fundamental theorem of poker, that means that calling is better than shoving here (unless you believe he's going to call with a pair of kings, and a less-than-A kicker).Then if you do and you flop bottom two and get check raised on the flop, please just ship. You're facing Kx enough times here that it's easily going to be profitable if he calls. If he folds, that's fine too because your hand is unlikely to improve. The time he shows up with KJ is just bad luck. -
You're in a 5$ 9-handed 1500 chip SnG, it is one of the first few hands, so you know little about the players but you know the opposition is generally weak at this hour on these tables.You get dealt 7
J 
in late position, everyone folds to you, and you make it 30 (the blinds are 5/10).Everyone folds, and BB calls with 1500 chips in front of him. You also had 1500 chips prior to the start of the hand.Flop comes K 
7 
J :club:He checks, you bet 40.He raises to 185, you call.Turn comes 5 
, he bets 435, and you call.River comes 2 
, and he is all-in for 850. You have 850 left.What do you do?a ). Callb ). Fold -
So... Now what happens?
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*facepalm*Where did I once say that 20bb is deepstacked? Where did I say that raising "for information" with that stack was a viable option? Where did I fold my KK to the shove?Either way, the guy on the BB had Q2. Off suit.
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I don't think BB has a 6. I'm saying he *could* have a 6. He was in the big blind after all.If I thought I had played it well, I wouldn't have made this thread and wouldn't have bothered explaining myself. But so far, I have heard zero justification for playing it fast on the flop and turn, while I have explained my reasoning for playing the hand meekly. Yes, all my chips were going in either way, but if I play it meekly at least some of their chips are going in as well even if BBs hand is as bad as some overcards.And whoever said raising the turn for information is stupid... You don't play deepstack much, do you?others have alluded to this, but the fact that you make a raise with two kings and immedeatley think the BB has a 6 because two of them flop is bizzare. this is a spot where you are trying to get it in every time. Either shove the flop or bet an amount where a hand like Ak/AQ will call the turn and be forced to call the river.Truth of the matter is, it dosen't sound like you want advice, it sounds like you want us to tell you how good you played it, problem is you didnt play it good. But instead of listening to why that may be, you are contesting every piece of advice. Can't learn much that way -
It's either playing this hand, or the next hand.Shove.
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So?The money goes in either way. The outcome of the hand is not changed by me betting or by me not betting.If I let them aggress, I also get a chance to pick some money up from a guy who's on a stone cold bluff.Also, what part of "I'd raise for information if I had a big enough stack" did you guys not understand?It's also very likely that they have an overpair and you get overshoved too. Or they float you with overs. -
But as I said: if they missed the flop completely, which was the most likely option, they would probably fold to my aggression.There is very little danger in giving them a free card.Me being the original raiser, it is much more likely that I missed the flop and that BB hit the flop. Which means that BB is almost guaranteed to fire a bullet if I give him some space.If I'm behind, I lose anyway. If I'm ahead, I make more money by collecting bullets.I personally see more reasons to not be aggressive on the flop than to be aggressive.You have KK, 18bb, and a good flop. That seems like a good enough reason for me. You seem nittier than me, and that's pretty nitty. -
I am a much better deepstack player than I am a shortstack player. With deep stacks, this paranoia has been very healthy for me so far.I can see how I probably was overthinking this considering the size of my stack, especially since the players I was up against didn't look good or thinking (I wasn't on the table long enough to know anything else but that).But my reasoning aside, do you think I made the right play in the end? Or I should've shoved before that, or maybe have done something completely different?You kind of have to get it in there. Not liking the paranoia of some of your reasoning process. -
Exactly. It's just a thought that crossed my mind naturally, having played really deepstacked for hours just prior to that hand. That's why I didn't raise, and I did end up putting all my chips in, but when I was pretty confident I was ahead. It looked like a bluff on the river, so had I shoved on the turn I would've taken my opponent's play away from him if he had nothing.Raising to 5000 with only 3750 behind for "information" is a horrible play, especially with 250/500 blinds.You are looking to get your entire stack in this hand.If your stack was a lot deeper, I'd probably play it a little more like you did. With only about 20 BB's though, I'm looking to get my stack in the middle at some point in this hand.
The blinds were going to start at 300/600/0 on day 2, for 45 minutes. Had I won a small pot and had 13-15k on day 2, I would've felt ok. I can play with that.If I had lost a small pot and had 6-7k left, I am shortstacked, it's not ideal, but I am still alive and nobody would want to lose 7k of their chips on 300/600, so again, I can make something with it.If they had a pocket pair, or any kind of hand that I was beating, I would still be beating them on the river, *and* I would be giving them a chance to bluff away their money on this hit-or-miss board. So no need to rush on the flop.If I was beat? I had a chance to get a better idea of their hands by the way they play and act on those streets, and if I had a very good reason to believe I was beat? Folding is better than donking away my chips when I know I am behind.In other words, I see no reason to play aggressively on that board whatsoever. Or is there something else I am overlooking?This is not a marginal situation. The board is 662r and you have KK. Your opponents have a ton of hands that you beat and very few that you're behind. You shouldn't look at this flop and think, "BB could easily have a 6, I better keep the pot small." You should think, "How do my kings stack up against the pf calling range of two tournament donks?" The answer is, "Very well, so let's try and get the money into the pot." Do you think they fold pocket pairs that you beat? No, they don't. What do you think happens against 99? You win a stack. They probably don't even fold Ax if you make the bet small enough on the flop. If I'm in a tournament about to go to day two, and I have just 10k chips with blinds at 250/500, I want to either double up or bust. Now suppose you folded this river. Then you'd have 7000 chips and you'd have to drag yourself back to the tournament on the next day with blinds at like 600/1200 or whatever they'd be. F that. -
No, I checked the flop because I knew that if I was good on the flop with KK, I was most likely good on the river. The risk of giving away free cards is minimal. As far as I am concerned, there is no reason to make the pot bigger as this is a marginal situation and I'd rather play a small pot. BB could easily have a 6 in his hand. If he does have a 6, however, it is very likely that he would only bet on the river (hoping that I would bluff on the turn), as it is unlikely that I have any of that flop.Had the flop not been a "hit or miss" one, I'd most definitely play the flop aggressively.you have kings, virtually no stack, and the board isn't all that dangerousraise to 1500 pf, bet the flop and try and get money into the pot. I mean you checked the flop presumably to trap, right, to look weak? you got the action you wanted, now call.he probably doesn't have a 2 simply because it's an unlikely card to call with pf, as really the only combinations that involve a 2 are like A2s/A2o(for donks) and maybe 23s. Not really because he'd be afraid of giving free cards so therefore he'd have to bet the flop...while it's possible that villain has 6x, it's also possible that he has a worse overpair (77/88/99etc) and that he had picked up a flush draw on the turn -
I was playing a 2-day deepstack tournament the other day, and here is the hand I had at the very end of day 1.Blinds were 250/500 no ante, and I just got transferred to this new table with around 10'000 chips. 1 guy went out after a few hands, and we were left 6 handed.I get delt KK in mid position, and am the first to enter the pot by raising to 1250. The only callers are small and big blinds. Both of them have around 20'000.3750 in the pot, I'm left with 8750.Flop comes 6h 6d 2c.Checks around to me, I check - with pocket Kings, I know that the risk of giving them free cards is minimal, and the big blind could easily have a 6.Turn comes a 4h. Small blind checks, Big blind bets 2000.Now, I am thinking to myself. I should probably raise here to 5000 for information, and if he calls and leads the river, I should probably fold. But I can't do that with the size of my stack, as I'd get myself committed.Shoving all in? Bad idea, he could easily have a 6, and my stack is not that small yet to risk it like that.So I decide to just call after taking a lot of time to think, hoping he would give up on the betting on the river. Small blind folds.River comes a 2d.7750 in the pot, I have around 6750 left. Big blind puts me all in.Now, I am thinking to myself. If he had a 2 in his hand, checking the flop would be pretty stupid. Chances are neither me, nor small blind have a 6 or a 2, and any free card would be dangerous if you hold a 2! Checking the flop and betting the turn when a 4 drops wouldn't make too much sense if you hold a 2.If he had a 6, giving him the nuts? Why would he put me all in? I still have 7k chips, I am not pot committed, and what hand could I possibly have (from his perspective) to call him with? Therefore, I was pretty confident he didn't have a 6. It looked more like he sensed weakness with my hesitation on the turn, and was trying to push me off.Having though all that, I decided I was probably ahead, and called.Was it good play or bad play by me there? What do you think?
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I suppose you've got to abstract yourself from the value of the chips, and just play your game.With all the money you play for live, how do you stay focused playing at these limits?
Playing Ak
in Tournament Play
Posted
Why is calling better than shipping? If he is on a draw the money is more likely to go in on the turn.