ChicagoMike22

This is a good thread on Pot Control, vs Value bets, vs Protection lines.http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=259446

Not necessarily. Overall I think the conclusive information you can get from win with or w/o showdown is pretty close to 0.0.For example, if you won w/o showdown but lost with it, you may be bluffing too much and therefore lose a larger amount when folks take you to showdown. I'm pretty sure if you 3 shot every pot you would show a non-showdown profit. orYou could be running like complete poo so you are losing more than your fair share at showdown due to suckouts therefore increasing the win with and w/o showdown gap.

This is pretty impressive even by my standards.

Yeah I agree, but doesn't the river shove not fit into that? Is he spaz shoving with top set after the flush hits? Overall, I am just very confused. What shoves this river for value expecting me to call? Is he really making this dumb of a bluff? Could be, it reminds me of a ridiculous bluff you see complete over aggro fish make, where they just start shoving money in the middle.Edit: Do you think it could be something like A4 or A5 hearts?

MP is a 22/17/4 200NL regular. I have no applicable past experience. What is your read on this line? What range calls river? Party Poker $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 playersThe Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.comUTG: $297.80MP: $191.00Hero (CO): $209.00BTN: $250.00SB: $410.30BB: $213.60Pre Flop: Hero is CO with XX1 fold, MP raises to $6, Hero calls $6, BTN calls $6, 2 foldsFlop: ($21.00) Q 6 4 (3 players)MP checks, Hero bets $16.00, BTN folds, MP calls $16Turn: ($53.00) 5 (2 players)MP bets $37.00, Hero calls $37River: ($127.00) 2 (2 players)MP bets $124.00

If you are going to put KK in his range than I think you need to include AA. However, I think KK 4bets almost always out of fear of an Ace on the flop. Also, he is a regular TAG so calling AQ and KQ oop when I 3bet his utg open from MP would be really out of line.The more I think about this it is a fold. Even using the wide range you gave we are behind. However, I only gave him KQ and AQ suited. Which is still be pretty out of line, but KQo and AQo is extremely out of line.Board: Tc 9s JdDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 44.320% 41.99% 02.33% 14135

Can you expand on your thought process here? I'm struggling with anything other than a fold. I have no past history of this player donk betting in a 3bet pot, and he is not a complete fish. So, I think it is safe to assign some logic to his actions.

Mark,What would be your thought process on the hand?

Really? I'm not sure at all on this hand, but I'm leaning toward fold without direct history.What donk bets this flop. 88-QQ?Board: Tc 9s JdDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 40.808% 39.77% 01.04% 8268 216.00 { AdAs }Hand 1: 59.192% 58.15% 01.04% 12090 216.00 { QQ-88 }So this has to be some bizarre bluff 20% of the time to break even? I really don't know how to calculate that though.

What does "IPITS" mean?

I thought this was one of the best answer's I have seen to this question in a 2+2 well.

How should I be approaching this situation. UTG is a standard 200NL regular. I decided to take one off as a hedge against a possible draw. Once the st8 draw missed I got it in. The only other option I can see is just dropping it on the flop. A 3bet donk bet by a regular imo is strong. Is a flop fold the best option?PokerStars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 PlayersSB: $246BB: $158UTG: $214MP: $200Hero (CO): $506.60BTN: $233.80Pre-Flop: A A dealt to Hero (CO)UTG raises to $7, MP folds, Hero raises to $26, 3 folds, UTG calls $19Flop: ($55) T 9 J (2 Players)UTG bets $38, Hero calls $38Turn:

We were attempting to discuss the value in 3betting AJ from the blinds. Snamuh stated that he felt it was not a good idea, b/c for example on a A79 flop when raises your cbet, AJ is not in good shape against his range. I don't see asking him to define this range as implying "only one course of action for each situation, independent of all other variables."

No, I'm sorry you don't have that right.

I see, so you sometimes call, sometimes fold, and sometimes raise. Do I have that right?

???????What is this range you speak of? We've established that 86s is in it; what else?

Depends on your calling range. Which I would assume would be tight. So yes, until expanded your calling range, they would show a profit.

That fact that you call with 86s and get it in on A79 means that it IS in your range and and AJ is in good shape against that range.

When you say bluff shoving what do you mean. Are the shoving with complete air, or shoving when they hit some draw.

Why, how does doing this give you an edge at 6max NL holdem?If anyone hasn't noticed "Why" is the word of the day for me.

Anyone else ever surprise themselves like I have today? I've been playing 6max cash for almost a year now, and up until today I could not tell you roughly what percentage of the time a standard 3bet range hits a King high flop, or how often the villain has to fold to my raise of his cbet to turn a profit.Hell, I didn't even really know how to calculate how often they have to fold until 3 hours ago.

So how do you play a A92r flop when you just flat called? The only thing that changed is the pot size.and, what hand regularly flat calls your 3bet and dominates your AJ on a A92r board? AQ....?

The theory as I understand it is basically: You don't want to 3bet against a guy who is mostly a fold or 4bet type. If you flat call you keep the habitual stealer's range as large as possible, therefore increasing your EV. When you 3bet he folds a large percentage or 4bets and forces you to fold. Its almost like turning your had into a bluff.However, this is my point or my deal today at least. I have absolutely no math or ranges to back up that statement. I really don't truely understand it. I've read other folks stating it, and I agree with it conceptually. But I have no clue truly.

Ok, Perfect statement. I have read this many times and conceptually agree with it. Why is this a correct statement?Do you personally understand the turn ranges and numbers around that statement? Why is it bad to 3bet 67s against someone who calls 3bets in pos? How often is too often? Say they call 3bets 60% of the time. Is this someone who you do not 3bet 67s? What about 50%?When they do call, what is their default range?

Ok, most of your post and especially the last part are exactly the kind of thinking I have found myself using to make decisions. However, Do you believe you have a solid understanding of Why you don't want to be oop with AT and AJ in 3bet pots, for example?Personally, I have found that I honestly don't. I understand conceptually and I have seen other good players state it, but I don't have a complete understanding of it myself. In other words, I knew conceptually that a naked King high flop is a good bluff flop b/c its hard to hit with a hand willing to stack, but up until now I didn't know t