danc1984

You are missing the point I think. There are no "better spots". We can rebuy the money we lose if we don't hit our draw. There is no 'patience' issue. Either we have the correct odds or not.It has already been agreed upon that the bet does not give us the 'exact odds' to call on our draw. However, to suggest that we are not getting enough out of the villain on the river here to justify a call is, IMO, ridiculous.

These are fair comments. I agree that I hate a c/c line for the turn and river against an unknown here and, I will be honest, I had no idea of what his range was here on the turn.What line would you have taken? Bet $10 and fold to a shove?

Its not that I don't want to hear it, its just that i was totally lost as what to do on the turn here. I just sat there looking at the screen saying, I don't know what to do here, so I guess I just checked almost by default. I wanted to hear what everyone else thought I should do and why.In relation to his tendencies, unfortunately I have no idea. Some ppl do just bet pot everytime they bet whilst for others this could, as you say, represent a draw.

Hey guys, this is actually the first hand that I have posted and unfortunately I have lost the hh so I am going to have to do it manually by memory.Full Tilt Poker. 0.15/0.30 NLHE DeepStack 6max.Effective Stack Sizes:Villain $45Hero coversRead on villain - I have only been at the table for a few orbits and he had not really caught my attention as of yet. My Poker Office does not work on my laptop so unfortunately no numbers.Hero is MP1 and is dealt AdAc and raises to $1.10CO (villain) calls, SB calls, BB calls.Flop ($4.40) 4s 6s 4hHero bets $4, villain calls, blinds fold.Turn ($12.40)

Is that agg. factor just postflop? If it is it is ridiculously high and you need to be shipping it in with KK there on the flop every time.

Any reads? Personally I do think you played it a bit too passive. What range are you putting him on when he raises you flop bet? I repop to like $15-$18 and obv call the push here. Its a draw or a ten more than a set IMO. As played the turn card is obviously awful but so is his bet. I agree that this line is kind of consistent with a nfd, but his bet is so small its hard to fold to it. River is an obvious fold.

I have never played that low but from my experiences at $10NL in the past I am not surprised at all by his holding.

Yeah, obviously check-calling with decent hands when you think your opponents range is mostly missed draws in a useful tactic. I would say slightly more useful than doing it with the stone cold nuts. LOL. I think everyone knows what you were trying to get at, just a ridiculous attempt at a hypothetical I think.

I don't understand. We call on draws when we have the odds, its how we win money.

A couple of things. So you are saying that if you are 100% certain that they were on a draw and missed and hold 8 high whilst you have the nuts you would check/call to gain information on their hand? What you are forgetting is that by check-calling you have to showdown your hand also. This will show everyone at the table how you played your monster hand on every street whilst you gain, what, some info on how a dude called on a flush draw? Obviously you cannot ever actually do this because you have the nuts and can never be certain of what your opponent is holding or how light he will call

This is a pretty sick spot, but what could he possibly do this with that we are head of? He overplayed the hand you mentioned for sure but he still had AA. I think we have to put him on a better K or a boat here, unless he is tilting it off, but I think it seems kind of unlikely.

Yeah, I don't really care what reasons anyone gives. He who calls behind with the nuts should be ostracized.

It is simple math. The hand is incredibly straight forward. We have 8 clean outs to what will deinately be the best hand. We need to determine if he is giving us the right price at $50 here on the turn. Considering implied odds, I would say that he is and therefore we should make the call. Poker is gambling, you must do it if you want to win. The trick is to gamble when the odds are in your favour, as they are here.

I fold this pretty quickly. His range when he raises the flop is like what? 44, TJ, QK? maybe a few other hands? Its pretty much a minraise which could be for three reasons - has a J and wants to see if you can beat it, flopped a monster like 444 and doesn't want to scare you away, or a draw. The main draw, QK, got there on the turn. Then his turn bet is telling you that you are beat. I fold.

This thread rules. There is actually a debate on whether we should check call the nuts on the river.

It is a cash game, not a tournament. A play is either +ev or its not. Here, the call of $50 on the turn is fine. Sometimes we miss our draws, it happens. The villain in this hand will eventually be punished for giving people the odds to outdraw him.

This is good, no problem with it at all. From the stats you posted you probably just need to look at tightening up a fair bit, especially when oop.

Personally I find that everyone whinges about every site like its the worst, its just that stars has the most players. Pokerstars obviously is the 'Jokerstars; or 'Riverstars', on FTP ppl seem obsessed with saying 'this site is ridiculous' whenever they lose with a 20 hand and I have heard 'another UB special' a million times from guys who have had there AK cracked by 89s.

If this hand happened to me online I would fold without a pretty good read. However I have heard live poker is retarded so its probably a call.You said he splashes around to catch. Have you seen him in pots with draws before? Does he call when he is chasing or does he prefer to be the one doing the betting?

You mean when he bets the turn again? The point is that his range on the flop is still huge and we beat most of it. What we need to decide upon is whether he is firing again on the turn here on either a bluff, a hand he thinks may be good that we beat (such as 99,TT), AK/AQ with a club, or the overpair or made flush. Personally I think we need to give it up here on the turn. Whilst I think there is a chance he is firing again with AcKx or AcQx due to his aggression factor, I think we are behind too often and we are probably gonna be faced with a massive river bet either way. Being OOP has

I don't think we can really consider check-folding the flop here. UTGs range in extremely large as he has a preflop raise % of over 20. Also, he is very aggro, meaning that he will probably cbet this flop close to 100% of the time, whether he actually has anything or not.

I'm playing 6 max. Aggression factor seems reasonable to me. Everything looks pretty decent. Not saying that being looser is bad just that I am a fair bit tighter.

Does the fact that, at this level, most villains are not competent enough to play a set this fast enter into our thoughts?

Nice. I think I am starting to understand the reasoning behind calling. One more thing. How much of the villain's range can we attribute to each possible holding here? Personally I would discount QQ but obviously TT and 66 are possible. What portion of his range do you think are made up by these hands?